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Capacitor Rabbit Hole. Just How Do You Measure?


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7 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

These are "Klipsch approved", not sold by Klipsch though correct?

Right I'm saying sold by Klipsch, I doubt they make money off of JEM performance sales. Leverage their buying power to get the caps cheaper. Maybe not a big enough market to be worth the hassle though.

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10 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

These are "Klipsch approved", not sold by Klipsch though correct?

I am assuming that JEM is a sole source vendor selling these capacitors with Klipsch blessing the endeavor. Like woofers Eminence makes for Klipsch that are OEM and available only through Klipsch I would imagine these capacitors are made just for Klipsch and also available only through Klipsch..

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

HF is a big problem and I end up using L-Pads more and more if I am not setting something up with active DSP. I expect HF is the far more egregious offender here.

I am a big fan of L-pads. One of the ways to tame a bright high end. Works perfectly. 

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"Klipsch Approved"  updates apparently don't apply to the AL crossover.  I checked with JEM by email a couple days ago regarding what can be done to improve the AL's in my La Scalas and he agrees there is no simple fix.   Here is his reply regarding the AL's...

 

Next the AL network in your LaScalas.  Well, this network really isn’t the best.  The midrange driver attenuation is off by 2db.  Then there is the issue of the notch filters.  That is a whole discussion by itself so I will leave that alone at this time.  This was all corrected in the AL3 network but to modify the AL to AL3 is expensive and would require parts no longer offered by Klipsch.  They would have to be sourced from other vendors and I don’t get involved with parts other than what the factory can provide.  This is the only way to keep a repaired speaker a genuine Klipsch product.

 

If you want to keep your LaScalas performing as-built, I can provide the Klipsch replacement caps.  However, this doesn’t address the problems with the AL network.  You can’t change to a AA network unless you change the midrange drivers from the K-55M to the K-55V.  The M and V have different sensitivities and therefore need specific networks to operate properly. 

 

So, you have two choices available that will still give you a genuine Klipsch LaScala other than just leaving them alone.  First you can back-date the LaScalas by switching to AA networks and K-55V midrange drivers.  I would recommend finding a good set of solder terminal K-55Vs.  This would place your LaScalas in the ’81 to ’82 vintage.  1981 and ’82 vintage Klipsch speakers sounded extremely good.  The only reason Klipsch changed things in the mid ‘80s is because the manufacturer of the midrange driver had some quality control problems and ceased production of it.  Electrovoice made the K-55M but due to variations in design, a new crossover network was needed for this driver.  The  AL network was the result.  The other option is up-date to the LaScala II.  This is probably the most expensive route but it would get you essentially a 2018 speaker.  You would need to change the crossover network, midrange driver and tweeter.  Unfortunately, all that would be left from your ’86 speakers is the cabinet and woofer.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

So different caps transfer voltages differently?  All you need to do is figure out how to measure that!

If by different caps you mean Mylar versus PIO, then I would agree.  How would they be any different than different drivers,  driver magnetic material, driver cones, driver diaphragms, etc.  

 

Not sure how it could truly be measured?

 

When i read about measurements and relation to networks, I often wonder what is being measured.  If I remember correctly, Trey measured a Heresy in the chamber, used 2 different caps and showed the graphs that there were no difference.  If I remember correctly, this was his base that different caps or older caps made no difference.   If this was the case, then wouldn't there not be any difference between gear, speakers, etc.   I believe what Chief has stated about the voicing is true and can understand where he is coming from, which makes more since to me. 

 

I think the first thing that needs to happen, is everything needs to be identified and defined.  Maybe there is a lot of confusion to what message one has received versus what has been sent. 

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8 minutes ago, jvs1670 said:

"Klipsch Approved"  updates apparently don't apply to the AL crossover.

So Klipsch doesn't approve of the stock crossover and resulting Klipsch sound?  Now I'm confused.

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12 minutes ago, jvs1670 said:

You would need to change the crossover network, midrange driver and tweeter.  Unfortunately, all that would be left from your ’86 speakers is the cabinet and woofer.

Plus rebuild the entire cabinet to 1" thick material.

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12 minutes ago, Dave A said:

I am assuming that JEM is a sole source vendor selling these capacitors with Klipsch blessing the endeavor. Like woofers Eminence makes for Klipsch that are OEM and available only through Klipsch I would imagine these capacitors are made just for Klipsch and also available only through Klipsch..

I wasted more time than I should admit to, trying to find a source for the caps shown in the video posted. As far I can tell from the video stills the cap shown is 2.0uF +/- 5%, MEA (metalised polyester), 250vdc, brand unknown. Try and find a source for a cap with those exact specs. I couldn't.

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36 minutes ago, iaRIVR said:

I can also add a jet kit and new suspension to my motorcycle and the original designer might say 'that's not how we intended the bike to ride' but 99% of people would say it's faster and handles better, how is that a bad thing?

Although they might say that, it doesn't make it true.

It's a balancing act of goods offered to the masses are produced to be affordable to as many people as is interested in the product and to make the most profit. The masses are not willing to pay x amount more for what little is improved, and the producer isn't willing to spend x more without raising prices, which will cause less purchases. There is always better than stock anything. 

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1 minute ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

Although they might say that, it doesn't make it true.

It's a balancing act of goods offered to the masses are produced to be affordable to as many people as is interested in the product and to make the most profit. The masses are not willing to pay x amount more for what little is improved, and the producer isn't willing to spend x more without raising prices, which will cause less purchases. There is always better than stock anything. 

This might be sacrilege but I have always looked at Klipsch as the Harley's of the audio world. Extremely loyal following that can hardly wait in many cases for the warranty to expire so they can find performance and bling parts to add on.

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So ALK, Crites and now JEM are all on record saying the AL crossover basically sucks.  If I don't want to change out the K-55M the only solution is the AL-3?  JEM is saying you shouldn't just go with the AA crossover, but Crites says his AA or AL-3 are what he recommends.  Does his AA account for the K-55M?

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5 minutes ago, Dave A said:

This might be sacrilege but I have always looked at Klipsch as the Harley's of the audio world. Extremely loyal following that can hardly wait in many cases for the warranty to expire so they can find performance and bling parts to add on.

 

5 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:
12 minutes ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

There is always better than stock anything. 

But it's not stock then which I think is the whole point.


Sometime stock is what was wrong...

Ex:

 

3 minutes ago, jvs1670 said:

So ALK, Crites and now JEM are all on record saying the AL crossover basically sucks. 

 

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8 minutes ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

Sometime stock is what was wrong...

But it's still stock.  According to some, it's stock or not stock (non Klipsch sound), period.

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Never done this but........ Mr Weiner talks mostly about differences (myths) in cable but I don't see why his same test could not be done on a crossover output to reveal differences in capacitors:

 

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