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Dave A

Capacitor Rabbit Hole. Just How Do You Measure?

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4 hours ago, The Dude said:

Or he really wants to keep what PWK's vision is. 

 

As for the bike reference, People used to chop Harleys regularly, all attempts to perform better.  I know Harley shops sell "upgrades", are any of these offered as an upgrade when buying new?  My guess rather they are or aren't this is allow by Harley to keep from losing money to the aftermarket world. 

 

Like Carl mentioned, its no longer stock and to piggy back on that. If you don't like the stock sound or ride, why purchase the product at all.  Build your own from the get go.  I buy Klipsch cause I like the sound, I leave it at that. 

Yes and no. If you mean keep the vision of superior sound at a remarkable efficiency level relative to the competition I fully agree. The first Tractix horn with Klipsch, if I remember right, happened because Roy pushed the idea over the old exponential. I wonder how many times PWK tinkered with things too. I am thinking of a mid brace in a set of La Scalas he is pictured with here on this forum. Mumps and the CW4 are fine examples of deviation from tradition also that work. I don't know exactly what causes people to buy specific products and then desire to change them for whatever reason but Klipsch and Harley are two. However they DID choose a specific product and are loyal to it.

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4 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

Well, this from JEM, who are now apparently the experts.....

 

If you want to keep your LaScalas performing as-built, I can provide the Klipsch replacement caps.  However, this doesn’t address the problems with the AL network.  You can’t change to a AA network unless you change the midrange drivers from the K-55M to the K-55V.  The M and V have different sensitivities and therefore need specific networks to operate properly. 

Not too stray too far off topic, but what is the correct crossover to use if you have K55M?

Dont say AL cuz I gave mine away to another member, who gave them away to someone else, who I believe burned them. I do have an extra AB laying around!

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6 minutes ago, MookieStl said:

Not too stray too far off topic, but what is the correct crossover to use if you have K55M?

Dont say AL cuz I gave mine away to another member, who gave them away to someone else, who I believe burned them. I do have an extra AB laying around!

I have used the K-55 M and V drivers on the AA crossover. I like that crossover the most so when I used to get La Scalas I would put AA's in there. Both drivers sounded fine to me when in good condition. I have had problems with buzzing from M's because the plastic cap on the back gets loose. Bead of silicone around it solves that. I have also had problems with both types not sounding quite right even though they would ohm the same and sounded OK with a frequency sweep generator. In retrospect I should have had a known top condition K-55 to contrast the old one to when doing the frequency sweep. What happened is I would put them back in and it still did not sound right. Talking to Crites about diaphragms because I was to that point on a set and he mentioned that they had some older drivers that ohmed and swept OK but did not sound right. So I bit the bullet and put new diaphragms on a pair of these and they sounded right. The M is harder to replace the diaphragm. I prefer the V for these reasons but use either with confidence.

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21 minutes ago, MookieStl said:

Not too stray too far off topic, but what is the correct crossover to use if you have K55M?

Dont say AL cuz I gave mine away to another member, who gave them away to someone else, who I believe burned them. I do have an extra AB laying around!

I asked the same question.  That's what I have too, so what is best?   Honestly would really like to know.

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Everyone is getting stressed over nothing.

 

Your room will have more impact on the sound than the difference in these drivers. Everyone also hears differently. We are not walking microphones and we don't listen in an anechoic chamber. While not technically correct, there is nothing inherently wrong with using the M in place of the V, or using the Type AA with either. Your ears/brain are more forgiving to small changes in frequency response than they are to distortion.

 

If you like the Klipsch house sound, and will sleep better at night knowing everything is the way Klipsch wants it, then follow their recommendations.

 

 

V_m.jpg

k55mk55v1.jpg

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19 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

These are "Klipsch approved", not sold by Klipsch though correct?

 

  Klipsch  appointed JEM Performance as a Klipsch  Authorized Repair Center for  Klipsch Original Crossovers -

 

JEM also handles the sales of Klipsch Crossover Genuine parts   -

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Yet when Youthman tried to ship his networks, he was told not to, and was just sent the capacitors. It could just have well been an autotransformer failure.

 

I'm basically retired from doing this kind of work, so I'm just speaking as an observer.

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10 hours ago, MookieStl said:

Not too stray too far off topic, but what is the correct crossover to use if you have K55M?

Dont say AL cuz I gave mine away to another member, who gave them away to someone else, who I believe burned them. I do have an extra AB laying around!

Bob Crites recommends the AL-3 along with the AA or A/4500 he sells. Probably the AL-3 would be the best choice. Personally I prefer a simple 1st order crossover like the A or AA for horns after much experimentation with crossovers. I would not use the A though because of the delicate tweeter in my LaScala. 

 

http://www.alkeng.com/klipsch  Also sells a crossover that has adjustable attenuation for the midrange with has many advantages for tailoring the sound to ones taste. Acts like a L-pad but possible even considered a better way of adjustment using the autotransformer. Personally I do not find a few db's difference between the K-55M and the K55V to be any consequences. I have experimented with the Selenium D-250X for the midrange in my Klipsch speaker and found it to be excellent even though the frequency response on a graph is not quite as good as a K-55M. Bob Crites also agrees that the Selenium is a good replacement. The Selenium brand is a cheaper JBL component. On the driver itself it says JBL D-250X not Selenium D-250X. 

 

The AL crossover is where an engineer decided to smooth out the frequency response with notch filters, I think that is what they are called. A lot more components are used in the AL crossover for the notch filters. Impressive looking was my first impression looking at them years ago. At the time of the AL the rage was for a flat frequency response which the notch filters achieved. Now most say the AL with it's flat frequency is not the best sounding of the Klipsch crossovers. Just goes to show what you measure and what you hear are entirely two different things. Test and graphs are a just a tool to be used by engineers mainly in audio gear to achieve a consistent product that sounds like the prototype. More components has a tendency to downgrade the sound with their side effects. 

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14 minutes ago, Deang said:

Yet when Youthman tried to ship his networks, he was told not to, and was just sent the capacitors. It could just have well been an autotransformer failure.

I would think that a "repair" center would welcome that along with having a spectrum analyzer and other tools to check the entire circuit.

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That's why I built from scratch. All of the parts are measured/tested by the vendor, and I just had to assemble. If the end user had an issue, I had them send the networks to my warranty center.

 

I thought all caps sounded the same and that we were hearing things. Good to learn that I was right all along.

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29 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

I would think that a "repair" center would welcome that along with having a spectrum analyzer and other tools to check the entire circuit.

 

 

Why slap shipping costs back and forth to the Consumer , plus labor , when the Technician taking the call of  @Youthman knew based on his Expertise in the Field of crossovers  , that the  most likely cause of the failure  was a bad capacitor that is +44 years old  , and the repair cost could be limited to parts-

 

 

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46 minutes ago, RandyH000 said:

 

 

Why slap shipping costs back and forth to the Consumer , plus labor , when the Technician taking the call of  @Youthman knew based on his Expertise in the Field of crossovers  , that the  most likely cause of the failure  was a bad capacitor that is +44 years old  , and the repair cost could be limited to parts-

 

 

What is his expertise in the field of crossovers?

 

We can have 10 cars come in the shop over a period of time with the same issues and symptoms.  You NEVER slap parts on a vehicle without properly diagnosing it first even if 90% of the time the same part fixes it.

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8 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

What is his expertise in the field of crossovers?

 

We can have 10 cars come in the shop over a period of time with the same issues and symptoms.  You NEVER slap parts on a vehicle without properly diagnosing it first even if 90% of the time the same part fixes it.

Off subject but unfortunately you are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to electronics. Most auto shops, including dealer, are mostly just part swappers. Retrieve the code and stick a part in without any diagnosing.  

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17 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

What is his expertise in the field of crossovers

the AA crossover is not a car with computers , sensors and complex electronics , the AA  is  not even a complex  network like the latest AL5  or AK6  , and  if JEM can   fix these new networks -then they are experts in crossovers -

 

the AA   XO was operative on the mids and woofer but fainter on the tweeter and , the tweeter was not the issue , what is the only  part  left  ?  , the cap for the tweeter ----you want  to send in a crossover , pay shipping back and forth , plus labor , for 1 bad cap -----my  8 year old niece could have called this one  - 

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3 minutes ago, RandyH000 said:

the AA crossover is not a car with computers , sensors and complex electronics , the AA  is  not even a complex  network like the latest AL5  or AK6  , and  if JEM can   fix these new networks -then they are experts in crossovers -

 

the AA   XO was operative on the mids and woofer but fainter on the tweeter and , the tweeter was not the issue , what is the only  part  left  ?  , the cap for the tweeter ----you want  to send in a crossover , pay shipping back and forth , plus labor , for 1 bad cap -----my  8 year old niece could have called this one  - 

 

I'm damn sure my 5 year old granddaughter could have written a more lucid response than that.

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The reason given for not shipping wasn't "in my expert opinion". It was - don't want to risk having them damaged or lost in the mail.

 

Anyways, back to the capacitor measuring thing:

 

I've asked the question(s) numerous times, both here and on the Klipsch Owners Group page on Facebook. On Facebook, I tagged Trey with some questions, and never got a response. Last year, Trey posted a picture of him measuring a new 2.0 uF Mylar, and the tester in the background showed an ESR of 2 ohms, which I would consider terrible. However, I could not tell what frequency he was using for the test. I even posted a picture of Al's ESR on a 33uF Mylar, which came out to .026 ohms. So, the answer from me would be "I don't know" - and I have simply given up expecting a response or straight answer on the matter. 

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What Al taught me. Now, this is using 1 kHz. I have no idea what Klipsch is using/doing.

 

 

CFD7B7DF-EB4C-495F-89A4-96C252E71EE4.jpeg

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23 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

Off subject but unfortunately you are the exception rather than the rule when it comes to electronics. Most auto shops, including dealer, are mostly just part swappers. Retrieve the code and stick a part in without any diagnosing.  

Uh, no. They always run a diagnostics test. That's how they get the code.

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What do others think about electrolytics, like the 33uf ones that come with E2 crossovers?  They don't particularly measure well, but I assume Klipsch was okay with that.

 

I always thought that the AK series crossovers were designed to make up for the lower SPL of the K-33-M in the 300-500 Hz range.  The large capacitor across the K-33 and the large inductor across the squawker result in voltage bumps in that area to compensate.

 

Getting back to capacitors.  I have K-55-M's, and I always thought there was something missing when using my hybrid crossovers (2.4mH inductors to the woofers). I had a couple of cheap 15uF electrolytics, so I added them across the woofer terminals.  I'm probably hearing things, but this seemed to fill in that "hole". I didn't try larger values, but the larger the value the greater the "bump".  If anyone is a tweaker as I am, try this.  I'd be curious if you notice a nice difference as well.

 

Mike

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21 minutes ago, RandyH000 said:

the AA crossover is not a car with computers , sensors and complex electronics , the AA  is  not even a complex  network like the latest AL5  or AK6  , and  if JEM can   fix these new networks -then they are experts in crossovers -

"If".  Can he, what's his background in electronics?  You seem to know a lot about him.  He could be the most qualified electronic tech ever but honestly I know virtually nothing about him other than he sells capacitors with Klipsch's blessing.  I'd like to think that Klipsch vetted him and he's MORE than qualified to work on these.

 

I can diagnose a bad cap or cold solder joint in a crossover but I would still consider myself a novice at best.

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