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Dave A

Capacitor Rabbit Hole. Just How Do You Measure?

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3 minutes ago, Dave A said:

That is what started this whole thread was the question of can an audio analysis of the effect each different type of cap you use be done with a UMike and REW or TrueRTA. I wanted to know if that could be done and I have no idea how to set up and do just that. I was hoping for an answer there but so far no answer.

Once the audio signal hits the crossover, speaker drivers and cabinet, and all of the variables in free air, inc humidity........

 

Too uncontrolled for any repeatable measurement unless you have a controlled test chamber.

 

Tea time

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8 minutes ago, Bubo said:

Once the audio signal hits the crossover, speaker drivers and cabinet, and all of the variables in free air, inc humidity........

 

Too uncontrolled for any repeatable measurement unless you have a controlled test chamber.

 

Tea time

Yum, carrot cake.

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27 minutes ago, Bubo said:

Once the audio signal hits the crossover, speaker drivers and cabinet, and all of the variables in free air, inc humidity........

 

Too uncontrolled for any repeatable measurement unless you have a controlled test chamber.

 

Tea time

Think for this purpose of done on a pair, a room could help out for obvious reasons.

One speaker a quicker result. Control is using one speaker for all testing, along with the same 

test equipment, software.

Once determined, close enough for the purpose at hand.

Nearing Miller Time here.

 

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2 hours ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

 

I thought you were a major contributor in the "No worthwhile technical contributions" thread, but I think that goes by another name.

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On 1/4/2021 at 9:34 AM, CECAA850 said:

In the experiment I did with my EV's the Daytons and Audyns measured similar yet the difference was definitely audible to me and my daughter.  It was obvious to both of us.  I swapped them twice and never told her what I did.  she had the exact same impression of the sound that I did and it wasn't that subtle.  There has to be something that measuring capacitance and ESR doesn't show.  If you hear a difference in 2 components and they measure the same then you're not measuring the right thing.  I'm not smart enough to tell you what you should be measuring though.

I think I need to clarify this as what I stated above is NOT accurate.  I swapped Daytons and stock caps and in each case the stock caps sounded better.  At that point I ordered the Audyns.  The Audyns and the stock caps sounded similar but the Audyns took the sibilance away that I was hearing.  Sorry for the confusion, what I typed above was not accurate.  The measuring comment was accurate however.

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7 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

I thought

Yay, I knew you could. 

 

9 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

I thought you were a major contributor in the "No worthwhile technical contributions" thread, but I think that goes by another name.

A lot of my posts have been posting things in the Alert section trying to help people score deals. 

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15 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

The Audyns and the stock caps sounded similar but the Audyns took the sibilance away that I was hearing.  Sorry for the confusion, what I typed above was not accurate.  The measuring comment was accurate however.

I was fixn to order some for a pair of Heresy, then these cap threads jumped up. I might be shipping or taking them to Dave's for some more tinkering. I have some things to pick up from there too. 

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14 minutes ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

I was fixn to order some for a pair of Heresy

I did a pair of H2's with Audyns and they sounded really really nice.  It's a pair that I never should have sold but I had way too many speakers and needed the cash at the time.

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1 minute ago, CECAA850 said:

I did a pair of H2's with Audyns and they sounded really really nice.  It's a pair that I never should have sold but I had way too many speakers and needed the cash at the time.

Actually, what I am thinking of taking to Dave's are the H1. I have some H2 that I am wanting to do, but I can wait (I am not using either pair) to see where the cap info goes. Did you H2 have the round or square terminal plate?

Now, back to the Fiat statement.......

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22 hours ago, kevinmi said:

 

after we figure out why caps sound different, can we move on to tubes?

8 pages on Capacitors, and it's only the beginning (like the Chicago Transit Authority song)

 

Cumulative tolerance and physical polarity.......................one lead in the center, the other lead on the outside of the foil. Why some people use 1/2 the value with 2 in parallel with the labels in opposite direction. PWK referred to all of them sounding the same if the ESR matches, but some with disagree, hence my prior sentence.

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1 hour ago, jimjimbo said:

I had thought that you were also considering using a calibrated mic and REW or some such thing.  I understand you were looking for input on that.  I don't think capacitance and ESR values are the question here, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I own a signal generator and oscilloscope, but since some people feel that there are AUDIBLE things going on that are far more complex than measuments, I don't think any Quantifying measurement attempts will ever convince those people. I would trust an AB/X box or a null tester as part of the quest.

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The only time I have seen a measurable audio difference in a film coupling cap was a case of an 80 year old cap in radio broadcast gear that had been powered on at least 50 years.  ESR was high, like 80 ohms, and there was an obvious loss of treble because of it.  

 

Otherwise, I hear things that seem different, I may measure semi-inconsequential ESR differences, but I've not seen an audio response difference.  I've measured plenty of high ESR that don't have response differences, and sound fine, all in high impedance tube circuits.  

 

Have I measured distortion between various caps in the same type circuit?  Multiple types of circuits?  Apples to apples?  No, there's not enough time in the day for that rabbit hole.   Maybe if I aspired to be a cap salesman!

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3 hours ago, Wirrunna said:

Subjective test results of European caps, this has been posted several times on the forums but I couldn't see it in this thread -

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

I first saw the link many years ago. Took it with a grain of salt. Now I try to stay away from people that hear things most do not hear. 

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4 hours ago, EMRR said:

, all in high impedance tube circuits.  

yes but speaker crossovers feed low impedance speakers, relative to tube circuits. It would stand to reason that high(er) ESR in the caps in a crossover would be detectable.

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4 hours ago, Wirrunna said:

Subjective test results of European caps, this has been posted several times on the forums but I couldn't see it in this thread -

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

With this link you only pour oil on the fire, it will not find acceptance here. It is really hard for me to accept the consistent refusal in this thread of technically advanced components like Resistors, Caps & Coils  and concepts for audio crossovers.

 

Example :

 

Step response of a round wire coil, from 10 Hz to 20 kHz.

 

Runddrahtspule.gif.0af9abdbbded55237d00c10c1f2c5c46.gif

 

Step response of a flat ribbon coil, from 10 Hz to 20 kHz.

 

Bandspule.gif.2f81de368e8b4d7c440efd554b8fc24c.gif

 

I am staying out of this discussion ........................

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Woofers and Tweeters said:

Actually, what I am thinking of taking to Dave's are the H1. I have some H2 that I am wanting to do, but I can wait (I am not using either pair) to see where the cap info goes. Did you H2 have the round or square terminal plate?

Now, back to the Fiat statement.......

Round and it was a PITA.  I had to make a separate board for the caps as they wouldn't fit on the back of the terminal cup like the originals.

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39 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

Round and it was a PITA.  I had to make a separate board for the caps as they wouldn't fit on the back of the terminal cup like the originals.

---quite hard to find woofers for the H2 ,  bought a pair of k28k  ,quality woofer ---very impressive cone -

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