La Scala - Change of Woofer??

[OO1]

14 minutes ago, Panelhead said:

  Will it fit? I hear the 15C is tight in many bass bins.

they used to cut some cast  woofer frames  because they tended to fit very tight in Scalas , or they could also  cut grooves in the sides of the dog house   ,  nothing new here - but the results were for the better -

 

one example ----The Crites cast frame woofer (CW1526C) is about 1/8” too big in diameter to fit into the La Scala bass bin.
 

[Nuttzy1]

I have a pair of 1990 LA Scala's with AL-3 crossovers I was thinking of restoring. Are there any modifications or service bulletins to make them better?

[chassell]

On 1/7/2021 at 11:10 PM, RandyH001 said:

they used to cut some cast  woofer frames  because they tended to fit very tight in Scalas , or they could also  cut grooves in the sides of the dog house   ,  nothing new here - but the results were for the better -

 

one example ----The Crites cast frame woofer (CW1526C) is about 1/8” too big in diameter to fit into the La Scala bass bin.
 

Yeah. I had to replace a stamped steel basket k-43 with the cast aluminum version, which is slightly bigger. Had to do the woofer basket grind to make it fit. 

[Coytee]

10 hours ago, Nuttzy1 said:

I have a pair of 1990 LA Scala's with AL-3 crossovers I was thinking of restoring. Are there any modifications or service bulletins to make them better?

 

Depends on how you want to define better.

 

Are you hung up (stuck) on "original"? 

Do you have the budget?

Do you have WAF "permission"  (HA!)

Can you deal with what some feel is ugly?

 

If it were me, I'd slap a K402 on top, go active and call it a day.  Will walk all over the sound you're going to get if you take it back to original three drivers.  

 

(I've owned LaScalas since 1979 so am not bashing on them at all....  I've heard the difference and simply put, it's for real)

 

But....  if you want to put new caps or a steep slope crossover in, new drivers and some fancy wire, then give it a go!!

 

(later on, when your curiosity gets the better of you, you can then try the 402 on top!  Warning:  It's not necessarily an inexpensive 'modification' but it WILL be keeping it all Klipsch and it has already been engineered....it's simply a plug/play situation)

 

 

[Coytee]

41 minutes ago, chassell said:

Yeah. I had to replace a stamped steel basket k-43 with the cast aluminum version, which is slightly bigger. Had to do the woofer basket grind to make it fit. 

 

 

This is more rhetoric as it's something I've wondered...

 

From what I understand based on what I heard Bob (Crites) himself say:  His K33 replacement is the exact TS parameters that the Klipsch K33 has.  He ordered some K33's and wanted his name on them, the manufacturer wouldn't do that but, they WOULD create a "custom" driver for him if he wanted.  He simply gave them the TS values of the K33.  Sort of a back door "winky wink" and he's got his K33 drivers with his branding.

 

What has me wondering is, are the cast versions essentially the SAME thing but with a cast frame verses stamped?  

 

If so, they they wouldn't they be exactly the same as the others?

 

I'd also wonder if the cast verses stamped DOES make a difference, if PWK would have adopted that back in the day.  I'd think once you bolt them down the stamped is good for the job??

 

 

[Edgar]

4 minutes ago, Coytee said:

What has me wondering is, are the cast versions essentially the SAME thing but with a cast frame verses stamped?  

 

Coincidentally, this was addressed just yesterday in another thread. The cast frame CW1526C is not the same as the stamped frame CW1526: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/150164-crites-cw1526cf-ts/&do=findComment&comment=1731834

[Coytee]

3 minutes ago, Edgar said:

 

Coincidentally, this was addressed just yesterday in another thread. The cast frame CW1526C is not the same as the stamped frame CW1526: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/150164-crites-cw1526cf-ts/&do=findComment&comment=1731834

 

 

 

 

Excellent...  I never knew that.

 

So, question...  (me being ignorant of the engineering side of things)

 

What is the practical difference of the two, aside from the frame?  How would those differences perhaps affect the sound?  Are those differences small or huge (in the TS numbers)

 

What if you flipped the cast/stamped frames to the opposing driver assembly, would the cast frame on the stamped TS values make any difference?  Reverse?

 

 

 

 

[Curious_George]

4 minutes ago, Coytee said:

Excellent...  I never knew that.

 

So, question...  (me being ignorant of the engineering side of things)

 

What is the practical difference of the two, aside from the frame?  How would those differences perhaps affect the sound?  Are those differences small or huge (in the TS numbers)

 

What if you flipped the cast/stamped frames to the opposing driver assembly, would the cast frame on the stamped TS values make any difference?  Reverse?

With the exception of the BL product, the other specs are very similar and would be considered in tolerance for most woofer drivers. 
 

The higher BL product makes the driver sensitivity go up and the QTS go down. The sensitivity difference is what you would hear out of all these variances. 

[Edgar]

8 minutes ago, Coytee said:

What is the practical difference of the two, aside from the frame?  How would those differences perhaps affect the sound?  Are those differences small or huge (in the TS numbers)

 

Well, for example, if you look at the red (stamped) and orange (cast) traces in the graphic here, you'll see the difference in a Cornwall-sized vented enclosure.

 

Quote

What if you flipped the cast/stamped frames to the opposing driver assembly, would the cast frame on the stamped TS values make any difference?  Reverse?

 

If properly designed, then the only difference that the frame should make is in cost. Some claim that they can hear differences in sound, but then some claim that they can hear colors of zip-ties, too.

[OO1]

1 hour ago, chassell said:

Yeah. I had to replace a stamped steel basket k-43 with the cast aluminum version, which is slightly bigger. Had to do the woofer basket grind to make it fit. 

those k-43 cast frame woofers are very sought after , and quite rare , these are some of the best quality woofers ever made -

[Deang]

3 hours ago, Coytee said:

From what I understand based on what I heard Bob (Crites) himself say:  His K33 replacement is the exact TS parameters that the Klipsch K33 has.

 

Which one?

[geoff.]

13 hours ago, Nuttzy1 said:

I have a pair of 1990 LA Scala's with AL-3 crossovers I was thinking of restoring. Are there any modifications or service bulletins to make them better?

 

 

Hi @Nuttzy1, and welcome to the forum.

 

Everything you can do to them will change the sound.

 

Whether that is good, bad, or indifferent only you can decide.

 

And everything you change brings you further into the world of diminishing returns, if and when, you want to sell them. Most buyers are looking for a 40 year old virgin, lol. 

 

Having said all that, if your mods are reversible you can always part out the good stuff after you restore your speakers to original.

 

Maybe start a new post and watch how quickly it fills up with everyone’s experience and you will get a pretty good idea of the rabbit holes you can start down.

[Deang]

3 hours ago, Coytee said:

He simply gave them the TS values of the K33.  Sort of a back door "winky wink" and he's got his K33 drivers with his branding.

 

They already had the T/S parameters of the driver(s).

 

So, you mean like PK did with the Atlas K-51-V? Just went over to EV and said, "Can you build one of these?" -- and out pops the K-55-M!

[Curious_George]

If these T/S parameters are accurate, the non-cast frame woofer does much better in a vented enclosure. The higher BL product on the cast frame woofer prefers an enclosure about 1/2 the size of the non-cast. 

 

If you could compare a 1526 & 1526C in the same (Cornwall) enclosure, side by side, you would find the 1526 has tigher controlled bass than the 1526C. 

[Curious_George]

Here are the enclosure recomendations from the software for the 1526 & 1526C. No tweaking done.

 

Green is 1526C

 

Orange is 1526

[Curious_George]

In this case, people are right, you can hear a difference in these woofers, but it is not the cast frame.

 

 

[Curious_George]

3 hours ago, Edgar said:

If properly designed, then the only difference that the frame should make is in cost. Some claim that they can hear differences in sound, but then some claim that they can hear colors of zip-ties, too.

In most cases, cast is for "bling" unless the extra strength is really needed. I'd rather have a good woofer with the specs I need for a design than a cast frame. If it was cast and price was nominal, I would buy the cast, if not, stamped steel.

[Coytee]

15 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

They already had the T/S parameters of the driver(s).

 

My recollection of his story was he called the vender, said he wanted to buy (for example) 100 K33's but, wanted "Crites" on them.

 

Vendor said that was a no-go.....those drivers are exclusive to Klipsch.  "However, if you call us and tell us you want 100 drivers with, A, B, C parameters, we would be happy to make them"

 

So, he hung up, got the list of TS parameters for the K33 (I have no idea which version), called them back and said "I'd like to order 100 drivers with TS parameters of ......." and "I'd like this Crites sticker on them"  (the add Crites sticker part is my commentary, I have no idea who puts it on)

 

Anyway, since he generically told them he'd like 100 drivers with "these" features, they made them with no questions.  After all, he didn't ask for a "Klipsch" driver nor a "K-33"

 

My take away from that is the drivers (stamped frame I presume) as provided by Crites, are exactly identical to the version of the K33 who's parameters he gave them.

 

Mind you, this was 13-14 years ago memory but I recall thinking he was pretty crafty doing it that way.  Got what he wanted AND stayed within their rules.

 

Cast frames?  I have no idea.

[Coytee]

5 minutes ago, Curious_George said:

In most cases, cast is for "bling" unless the extra strength is really needed. I'd rather have a good woofer with the specs I need for a design than a cast frame. If it was cast and price was nominal, I would buy the cast, if not, stamped steel.

 

Not being the technical or engineer type....I would think that once the driver is properly bolted down, it would be fine so as you say, it's more for bling than function.

 

I would have also presumed that if the cast DID perform better than the stamped, PWK would have gone with that but as it is, the stamped is sufficient to do the job at hand....

[Deang]

54 minutes ago, Coytee said:

So, he hung up, got the list of TS parameters for the K33 (I have no idea which version), called them back and said "I'd like to order 100 drivers with TS parameters of..."

 

No, that's not what he did. Now, if he had done that, it would be a K-33, wouldn't it.

 

 

57 minutes ago, Coytee said:

My take away from that is the drivers (stamped frame I presume) as provided by Crites, are exactly identical to the version of the K33 who's parameters he gave them.

 

Nope.