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JMeader

New to La Scala Wow what a sound stage

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

I plan to stay with the particular contributions of Klipsch in the areas where I enjoy the benefits of product ownership--because the value has been so high.  I've bought no products from others in this thread.  As such, I hold the value they produce here to be much lower than Roy's. He is trying to send a message to those that advise others here to tinker with PWK's designs for which they actually have no measurable or usable expertise in that particular subject domain.  It's reasonable to acknowledge this and to behave in like manner with those observations.  Good teachers in this subject area are hard to find. This has been my experience over the time that I've been here.

 

This is not entirely true for those of us who know better, but your sentiments are the most important aspect of your comment, as well as your helpful contributions here.

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13 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

Your understanding is wrong. But it’s your speaker. do what you want. Just don’t call it a la scala anymore.......

 

With all due deference...

I come to this forum for interesting opinions and some excellent information. I do not come here for drama. I do not like seeing someone who is new seeming subjected to abuse (esp. from someone like "Chief Bonehead"). 

I really enjoy my Klipsch speakers. I also enjoy playing with older models and trying to wring the best possible sound that I can from them. My 1976 Klispchorns have large EV horns and DH1A drivers in place of the original mid horn/drivers. I now have them time aligned using and Ashly unit as well. They are mine. They are Klispchorns. I do not need anyone's permission to call them that. 

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6 minutes ago, tromprof said:

 

With all due deference...

I come to this forum for interesting opinions and some excellent information. I do not come here for drama. I do not like seeing someone who is new seeming subjected to abuse (esp. from someone like "Chief Bonehead"). 

I really enjoy my Klipsch speakers. I also enjoy playing with older models and trying to wring the best possible sound that I can from them. My 1976 Klispchorns have large EV horns and DH1A drivers in place of the original mid horn/drivers. I now have them time aligned using and Ashly unit as well. They are mine. They are Klispchorns. I do not need anyone's permission to call them that. 

Thank you.

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Not to speak for Roy....  (cause all I'd do is screw that up!)

 

I think we all certainly have our own thoughts/opinions....  that said....so does he.  So, if we attempted to look at things through the prism of HIS eyes....  he was the right hand man of the Man himself.  Roy has never shown (when I've been in his presence) anything less than 100% respect, devotion and what the heck...  love for Mr. PWK.

 

So it's not hard for me to see him placing the purity of PWK's designs as his first priority and if someone were to "violate" (my word) that purity then it's perhaps similar to violating PWK's legacy to some degree.

 

??

 

Again, I've got no clue what's going on in Roy's head/heart but having seen/met him on occasion (as many here have) it was easy for me to notice and pickup on his absolute respect and admiration of PWK...  Once I put THOSE prism's on, it was much easier for me to see his point of view.

 

I don't know how correct I am or am not....  just my random thoughts.

 

 

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Dispersion Demo using a spring

 

Dispersion on a Black Board, free air calcs are different than solids or liquids

Not sure how far away from a LaScala you have to before dispersion effects the noticeable sound quality. The solids demo could be speaker cabinets that vibrate.

 

 

 

 

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Dispersion Demo using a spring

 

Dispersion on a Black Board, free air calcs are different than solids or liquids

Not sure how far away from a LaScala you have to before dispersion effects the noticeable sound quality. The solids demo could be speaker cabinets that vibrate.

 

 

 

 

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Common remark I make to people getting new to them used Klipsch speakers is to give a good listen first before before even beginning to make a decision about capacitor refresh. Refresh over upgrade language a better choice of words for me. Any other than close to the original would change my perceptions and hearing of what is wanted, a close to original sound as practical.

Now after hearing for awhile, whatever I choose in the way of capacitors, can tell any difference from the refresh.

Fortunately, Klipsch has now become engaged to the point of an approved supplier. Wrapping my thinking Abit about what has been said by the Chief, changing 

any component in the network changes what was measured in the chamber and by ear.

So, original sound or as close to it as possible for some. And then some mods, upgrades of other components, cabinet with the idea of improvement.

Can  understand both to a degree.

Always a work in progress with differing thoughts and opinions.

Epiphany comes into it at some point.

Why this must be the Klipsch forum!

Where you can learn from non cookie cutter real people with diversity on most every corner.

Free people who somehow hang together, and not.

Takes awhile but, hope you get there  @JMeader . Hope but know, we all will get there eventually.

Enjoy those speakers. They sure are not placement dependant.

Agree!

 

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19 minutes ago, billybob said:

Takes awhile but, hope you get there  @JMeader . Hope but know, we all will get there eventually.

Enjoy those speakers. They sure are not placement dependant.

Agree!

Since the OP's original comment had to do with PLACEMENT's great imaging on the true La Scalas, back to the subject at hand. I have found that keeping speakers against side walls with good toe-in give LaScalas better perspective geometry, otherwise known as "soundstage" or "imaging." ALL speakers are placement dependant since the room is 90% of the sound.

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The cost of designing, manufacturing and selling an item affects the performance level and price point. Disregarding profit, vehicles, even high performance vehicles, are designed within parameters that will allow them to operate without breaking as long as the operator doesn’t exceed the manufacture’s recommended parameters or specifications to a point. Tweaking will change the characteristics and nature of the vehicle but not the fundamental identity of the vehicle. I think the same can be said for anything. If a manufacturer designed and built the best, no cost limit product then maybe an argument could be made that change for changes sake is the goal of the person making the alterations. 
Tube rolling, capacitor, wiring, driver changes, etc. don’t change the original design goals, they just personalize the design.

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6 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Since the OP's original comment had to do with PLACEMENT's great imaging on the true La Scalas, back to the subject at hand. I have found that keeping speakers against side walls with good toe-in give LaScalas better perspective geometry, otherwise known as "soundstage" or "imaging." ALL speakers are placement dependant since the room is 90% of the sound.

 

That ship sailed long ago.  I'd be surprised if the OP returns after being insulted and chastised here.

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Directivity

 

I'll have to take a look for horn geometry and effect on directivity and interference

 

Not sure how far away you have to be for free air dispersion  to become noticable

 

Certainly it becomes an issue with a vibrating cabinet, or walls etc

 

At least I have some new video channels to watch for the winter

 

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

Is there a maintenance schedule of speakers?

I like to rotate the woofers every couple thousand hours of listening, 1000 if listening to heavy metal. 😉

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37 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Since the OP's original comment had to do with PLACEMENT's great imaging on the true La Scalas, back to the subject at hand. I have found that keeping speakers against side walls with good toe-in give LaScalas better perspective geometry, otherwise known as "soundstage" or "imaging." ALL speakers are placement dependant since the room is 90% of the sound.

Think I get that but, they sure exceeded my novice expectations.

 

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1 hour ago, Coytee said:

So it's not hard for me to see him placing the purity of PWK's designs as his first priority and if someone were to "violate" (my word) that purity then it's perhaps similar to violating PWK's legacy to some degree.

Yep. Totally agree. The Heritage speakers have a long history and design principles and philosophies associated with their creator. You buy and enjoy them knowing and respecting that. The vision wasn't a DIY-friendly product where you're encouraged to tinker and tweak and play. I believe Nelson Pass encourages that with his public domain amplifiers, but this is different.

 

If Grandma Smith spent years perfecting her peach pie, laboring over many trials and experiments, it becomes famous, and you go and change a bunch of ingredients and amounts, cook time, and procedure,  should you really be calling it Grandma Smith's Famous Peach Pie?

 

All Chief Bonehead said was they're his to do what he wants, just don't call it by the original name. Nothing more.

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I can understand why Roy @Chief bonehead feels “upgraded” Heritage are no longer Klipsch speakers.  I can also understand why Rich @rplace and others feel that a modified Heritage speaker is still a Klipsch speaker.  FWIW, I tend to agree with Rich.  IMO, there is a continuum that goes from pure Klipsch (Roy’s no modifications) to DIY Klipsch “clones.”  It is a personal decision as to where along that continuum each individual feels comfortable identifying something as Klipsch.  Roy’s blessing is unnecessary.  Of course, representing something as Klipsch, when it is not, is ethically wrong and possibly trademark infringement.  Any and all deviations from original Klipsch must be disclosed to potential buyers; but that is well beyond the scope of this discussion.

 

IMO, my DIY “Super Heresys” are not Klipsch speakers, despite having Klipsch tweeters, squawkers and crossovers.  The Crites titanium tweeter diaphragms, modified crossovers, Eminence woofers, and DIY ported cabinets made to Heresy dimensions prevent me from affixing Klipsch logos.  Contrast that to my son’s cosmetically modified Heresy speakers with new capacitors which proudly wear white graphic Klipsch logos from Klipsch pro speakers.  

 

The La Scalas I “refurbished” for the high school band have Klipsch logos.  Consequently, many hundreds of students have been exposed to Klipsch La Scalas.  Without the logos, most would not know what they were enjoying.  I’m certain that Roy would disown these speakers as Klipsch La Scalas, due to the djk bass reflex mod, Crites network kits, and Crites woofers, which is his right.  I lose no sleep for identifying these bastardized La Scalas as Klipsch because I feel they are essentially Klipsch La Scalas and because Klipsch benefits from the exposure to these young musicians.

 

As to the automotive metaphors, I feel that dropping a Chevy V8 into a Jaguar E-Type, although considered sacrilege by Jaguar purists, IMO, does not prevent the E-Type from still being a Jaguar, albeit a Chevy V8 powered Jaguar.  Recognize that this comes from someone who shoehorned a Corvair engine into a VW Beetle.  

 

FWIW, replacing a complex high maintenance DOHC Jaguar straight six with a Chevy V8 lump creates a more powerful, more reliable, but less valuable car.  If given the choice today, I would choose the unmolested Jaguar.

 

post-6832-0-52040000-1442844835_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

The differences can be measured but the audibility has always been in question, even by PWK in his Dope from Hope in talking about the solder lug version of the K-55. It has a "prettier" curve, proving that Klipsch even improved their product with driver swaps and crossover upgrades without changing the name at all in the early 80's (mostly by Jim Hunter). PWK's comments were right on as I measured the old and new K55's he spoke of, and he was right on both counts.

 

I was the one who posted that... That was part of my point as well. People have their preferences as to which drivers are better, but in the end, I could not hear it.  I can't say I hear a difference between the K-55's I've had and the A-55-G's. The tweeter is a different story though... Big difference and better, in my opinion. On the woofer side, I saw no benefit (to me) to change anything, just refresh with a new OEM. I think Bob has stayed fairly true in his replacement/upgrades and clearly, people wanted them.

 

Hell, the only reason I replaced the original woofers in my Heresy's is because they were so faded. The real improvement will probably be the bracing and actually sealing the cabinet, particularly on the poorly built one, which I'm sure isn't in the original design (it was pretty bad).

 

And for the facts vs feelings... The end goal is a feeling, no? 

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Can I veneer my HBRs and still call them a Heresy? There was a time I'd just roll with it but I have a lot to lose at this stage of my life.

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Roy @Chief bonehead, what is your position on modifying older La Scalas to address the known issue (eliminated in La Scala II) of cabinet resonances?  Does bracing similar to that shown in the attached photo render the speaker as not Klipsch?

 

post-6832-0-52040000-1442844835_thumb.jpg

 

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25 minutes ago, wstrickland1 said:

Can I veneer my HBRs and still call them a Heresy? There was a time I'd just roll with it but I have a lot to lose at this stage of my life.

If you can take the insults and badgering, go for it.  Hey, if you can survive being banned from the banana forum, I'm sure you can suffer most anything......

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6 minutes ago, DizRotus said:

Roy @Chief bonehead, what is your position on modifying older La Scalas to address the known issue (eliminated in La Scala II) of cabinet resonances?  Does bracing similar to that shown in the attached photo render the speaker as not Klipsch?

 

post-6832-0-52040000-1442844835_thumb.jpg

 

@mikebse2a3 knows, proof positive, the answer to that question. He has a pretty cool story on how they would address those issues back in the day. 

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