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VDS

Bass vs impedance

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Hi, trying to improve base from Cornwalls. I’m wondering about the correlation between bass output and impedance. Currently have Eminence kappa lite 3015 LF4, which has a large, sudden impedance spike centered at 45hz.  Wondering if that’s why I when I measure they drop off a cliff at 45hz.  Wondering if Fital PR400 which have similar impedance spike, but at 35 hz, (and average 6db louder from  35 to 70hz), would likely give me 10hz lower bass, (and boosted output below 70hz)?

does the extreme impedance spike basically shut the woofer down at that point?
thanks, Ted

ps.  Or should I just get subs? I never listen above 85db and don’t listen to EDM, hip hop, pipe organ music, (and only music, no home theater)  so I’m not looking to get subterranean base

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Don B. Keele Jr. was employed by PWK a very long time ago and Paul asked him to take a look at the CW and evaluate it. Don did and his recommendation was to leave it alone as Paul had nailed the design. There are woofer swaps you can make to impact performance you can search the archives. I would suggest you purchase a pair of subs. If you are willing to purchase a set of subs I would recommend you also purchase a set of Chorus ll (larger and better mid horn) and sell the Cornwalls.

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1 hour ago, moray james said:

Don B. Keele Jr. was employed by PWK a very long time ago and Paul asked him to take a look at the CW and evaluate it. Don did and his recommendation was to leave it alone as Paul had nailed the design. There are woofer swaps you can make to impact performance you can search the archives. I would suggest you purchase a pair of subs. If you are willing to purchase a set of subs I would recommend you also purchase a set of Chorus ll (larger and better mid horn) and sell the Cornwalls.

I have changed the Cornwall horn to a Elipitrac horn with a BSM 4592 driver.  This was an unquestionable improvement, not just a change.  I can’t  imagine anybody hearing this horn/driver combo and not preferring it to my original k52, 1” horn.  Just looking to see if people have found woofers that are also an improvement from the 60yr old(?) k33 design. 

Thus is a technical/modification forum, I see so many people told to leave the designs alone. As great of an engineer PWK was, I feel like there have to be ways to incorporate new ideas, designs to to improve the sound. I understand every change is not always improvement, but some changes certainly can be improvements.

thanks for the response though ,dialogue  is always beneficial. Ted 

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7 hours ago, VDS said:

Currently have Eminence kappa lite 3015 LF4

This is the issue.  If you had the original K-33 woofers, you'd be in much better shape.  The K-33s have a free air resonance (Fs) at ~34 Hz.  The woofers you have have a free air resonance (Fs) at 47 Hz.  That's the problem.  Find an original pair of K-33s or go buy a pair of Crites 15" woofers (either the cast frame or stamped version is okay).  You'll get your bass back if you return to the PWK-designed woofers.

 

Chris

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2 hours ago, VDS said:

I have changed the Cornwall horn to a Elipitrac horn with a BSM 4592 driver.  This was an unquestionable improvement, not just a change.  I can’t  imagine anybody hearing this horn/driver combo and not preferring it to my original k52, 1” horn.  Just looking to see if people have found woofers that are also an improvement from the 60yr old(?) k33 design. 

Thus is a technical/modification forum, I see so many people told to leave the designs alone. As great of an engineer PWK was, I feel like there have to be ways to incorporate new ideas, designs to to improve the sound. I understand every change is not always improvement, but some changes certainly can be improvements.

thanks for the response though ,dialogue  is always beneficial. Ted 

The Chorus/Chorus ll use a better Pro woofer but it requires more power than the K33 does. So if you want to use a small flea power single ended amp the CW with the K33 is your best option but if you have or are willing to use a more substantial amp the Chorus ll is a better option (it is the factory replacement/upgrade to the CW). Since you don't listen at high levels and if you are good with the CW size then stick with them and purchase a pair of subs to get your bass extension. get yur CW up so the mid horn is centred at your seated ear level for best stage and image.

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21 minutes ago, Chris A said:

This is the issue.  If you had the original K-33 woofers, you'd be in much better shape.  The K-33s have a free air resonance (Fs) at ~34 Hz.  The woofers you have have a free air resonance (Fs) at 47 Hz.  That's the problem.  Find an original pair of K-33s or go buy a pair of Crites 15" woofers (either the cast frame or stamped version is okay).  You'll get your bass back if you return to the PWK-designed woofers.

 

Chris

I agree with this. I may have had some influence on the use of that other woofer, but I had a specific usage for the higher Xmax and power handling of the Neo Woofer after Active PEQ's. Besides, after changing out so many parts, calling it a "Cornwall" amounts to true Heresy of the Brand! At that point, it's just a box with the same dimensions and NOT a Klipsch Cornwall.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I agree with this. I may have had some influence on the use of that other woofer, but I had a specific usage for the higher Xmax and power handling of the Neo Woofer after Active PEQ's. Besides, after changing out so many parts, calling it a "Cornwall" amounts to true Heresy of the Brand! At that point, it's just a box with the same dimensions and NOT a Klipsch Cornwall.

 

 

Not a Klipsch Cornwall, I agree, it’s some kind of “based on a Cornwall’. Mid horn and driver suit my ears much better though.

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Just now, VDS said:

Not a Klipsch Cornwall, I agree, it’s some kind of “based on a Cornwall’. Mid horn and driver suit my ears much better though.

No problem with that part of it. Enjoyment is why we mess with this anyhow.

 

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30 minutes ago, Chris A said:

This is the issue.  If you had the original K-33 woofers, you'd be in much better shape.  The K-33s have a free air resonance (Fs) at ~34 Hz.  The woofers you have have a free air resonance (Fs) at 47 Hz.  That's the problem.  Find an original pair of K-33s or go buy a pair of Crites 15" woofers (either the cast frame or stamped version is okay).  You'll get your bass back if you return to the PWK-designed woofers.

 

Chris

Chris, I have the original k33’s. I will reinstall and see what they sound like. Thanks for the info.  It’s hard in the beginning to understand how to interpret the many specs. Thanks

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2 minutes ago, VDS said:

Chris, I have the original k33’s. I will reinstall and see what they sound like. Thanks for the info.  It’s hard in the beginning to understand how to interpret the many specs. Thanks

are they square magnet or round magnet  ? --

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14 minutes ago, moray james said:

The Chorus/Chorus ll use a better Pro woofer but it requires more power than the K33 does. So if you want to use a small flea power single ended amp the CW with the K33 is your best option but if you have or are willing to use a more substantial amp the Chorus ll is a better option (it is the factory replacement/upgrade to the CW). Since you don't listen at high levels and if you are good with the CW size then stick with them and purchase a pair of subs to get your bass extension. get yur CW up so the mid horn is centred at your seated ear level for best stage and image.

It’s so hard to understand the complicated relationship between driver, box volume, room interaction. The longer I am involved the more I respect real speaker designers!

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1 minute ago, RandyH000 said:

are they square magnet or round magnet  ? --

Square...

D456A33C-20B8-4584-B530-069D009702BF.jpeg

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1 minute ago, VDS said:

Square...

 

These are the ones I prefer -

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Aren’t the square magnet K-33Es supposed to go lower than the round magnet version?

 

 

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Thanks for those.  I now know why the Crites 15" cast frame woofers (CW1526C) do so well in the K-402-MEH.

 

I did not remember the differences in Fs and Qts of the two Klipsch woofers--and even the BL-product difference.  That's a fair amount of variation, i.e., they're not really drop in replacements for each other, if one is looking to hold on to the original factory specifications for the K-horn, Belle, La Scala, and Cornwall.

 

Chris

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Those number are all over the place. The Qts and VAS in particular. This makes me suspect their accuracy.

 

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47 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Thanks for those.  I now know why the Crites 15" cast frame woofers (CW1526C) do so well in the K-402-MEH

 

Chris

Chris ---if I remember it correctly Bob Crites @BEC  modelled the Cast  CW1526C  after the K33E Square Magnet woofer of the 70's

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57 minutes ago, geoff. said:

This is one screen shot I gleaned from this forum

C791B020-C16C-4781-87E3-5074BA9CF2D3.png

this is great info --

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