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When to recap?


kswitzer

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29 minutes ago, wetowne said:

Specs and price was all that mattered.

I think you hit a Bullzeye -

 Specs  compliance is definitely  the 1st requirement ,  Klipsch OEM capacitors  from JEM  are compliant to Klipsch networks specs whereas a  Capacitor from PE-Dayton-Sonicraft -Solen  are not , but if they were ,  klipsch would be using them , hands down -

 

-Finally ,price  , the Capacitors from Klipsch sold by JEM are priced like Sonicaps  and the price requirement is also met -

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For me, especially with the Chorus speakers I have bought some that were sour sounding as best as I can describe it. When recapped they are very musical again just as I imagine they sounded new. In general it removes some harsh overtones that are there. I have no idea about voltage curves and can only assess capacitance and ESR as I measure them and then what the end result is to my ears. Am I wrong in thinking good spec 1% caps of equal  UF to OEM values are not the whole ball  game?

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Sound is so subjective. Identical spec components can do sound different with my ears and from what I have read. Sound is just too complicated to fully understand everything. Testing and specs are just tools to use with the final verdict determined by listening test. Nelson Pass describes it way better then I ever could in some of his lectures and writings. 

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

 Am I wrong in thinking good spec 1% caps of equal  UF to OEM values are not the whole ball  game?

 yes --and the same applies to all Brands , OEM products have technical differences to protect from counterfeits which do not meet Genuine OEM specs-

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1 hour ago, RandyH000 said:

 yes --and the same applies to all Brands , OEM products have technical differences to protect from counterfeits which do not meet Genuine OEM specs-

A sweeping generality that is not accurate and not topical to what I was even asking.

 

  I was thinking of the constant voltage idea on the way home today and perhaps Roy might touch on this. I think he is talking about current state of the art design and crossovers. I have a set here for some 535's and there are dozens of components on it. As compared to the legacy crossovers most often in discussion here that might have  ten or less components. I can see the new ones doing many things the old ones will never do and I am thinking Roy is talking apples because that is his world now and we are talking oranges because our world is the old obsolete in many ways crossover tech.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/31/2021 at 3:34 PM, Dave A said:

A sweeping generality that is not accurate and not topical to what I was even asking

let me rephrase ,   no one at  klipsch  R&D  would answer such a technical  question being it's confidential  -you can ask , but will you get an answer ?

 

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Klipsch experimented with notch filters with many components with the AL crossovers which on paper flattens the frequency response. Now not considered a great crossover. PWK was from the school of less is better. Any component added to any crossover is to correct a problem with the driver. A perfect speaker system would be one speaker handling the full audio spectrum. With a knowledge of electronics one can take a crossover and back engineer it to find why a circuit is added. In general terms it is because of the type of network involved 1st order to 6th order. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. With limited experimentation with big horns I prefer a 1st order crossover network with few parts. Even in the 40's and 50's PWK was aware of other orders of crossover networks but chose a 1st order except for the delicate tweeter, 3rd order in the AA network to protect it. Capacitors, electrolytic mainly, have improved over the decades but film is preferred in the audio path of a crossover network. Not much improvement in other components since then when talking crossover networks. Klipsch is now using an older capacitor design, polyester, thinking they are still plenty good enough even though polypropylene is considered better. I find nothing wrong with a polyester capacitor either and use them myself when price and size is is considered in a restoration or build. 

 

The general consensus is the sharper the network used the more you have to crank the volume to wake up your speaker. The more gentler the network produces big sound at low volumes. With a sharper network the problem of phase shifts is more prevalent as well. Each engineer of a speaker system understands these principles and has to chose what is best for his design and the sound he decides is best and hopes enough buyers agrees and purchase his product. 

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15 hours ago, henry4841 said:

Klipsch experimented with notch filters with many components with the AL crossovers which on paper flattens the frequency response. Now not considered a great crossover. PWK was from the school of less is better. Any component added to any crossover is to correct a problem with the driver. A perfect speaker system would be one speaker handling the full audio spectrum. With a knowledge of electronics one can take a crossover and back engineer it to find why a circuit is added. In general terms it is because of the type of network involved 1st order to 6th order. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. With limited experimentation with big horns I prefer a 1st order crossover network with few parts. Even in the 40's and 50's PWK was aware of other orders of crossover networks but chose a 1st order except for the delicate tweeter, 3rd order in the AA network to protect it. Capacitors, electrolytic mainly, have improved over the decades but film is preferred in the audio path of a crossover network. Not much improvement in other components since then when talking crossover networks. Klipsch is now using an older capacitor design, polyester, thinking they are still plenty good enough even though polypropylene is considered better. I find nothing wrong with a polyester capacitor either and use them myself when price and size is is considered in a restoration or build. 

 

The general consensus is the sharper the network used the more you have to crank the volume to wake up your speaker. The more gentler the network produces big sound at low volumes. With a sharper network the problem of phase shifts is more prevalent as well. Each engineer of a speaker system understands these principles and has to chose what is best for his design and the sound he decides is best and hopes enough buyers agrees and purchase his product. 

And you know this this about Mr k how? I talked a lot to Paul and your generalizations are way off 

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6 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

And you know this this about Mr k how? I talked a lot to Paul and your generalizations are way off 

I am confused. The only reference I made about PWK was that he was aware of other orders of crossovers in the above statement. Are you saying he did not know about other networks like say 2nd or 3rd order? As an electrical engineer I can almost certainly say he was well aware of all the networks used for drivers  He chose a 1st order network being the A network for his K-horn? Are you trying to say that was all he knew?  The A was used for many years until the delicate tweeter that could not handle frequencies below 6K hz was used. Then Klipsch kept the 1st order between the bass and squawker but used a sharper 3rd order filter with a sharper cutoff to protect that tweeter in the AA for many, many years. Also he did not even use any cutoff network for the squawker but depended on the cutoff of the horn itself to provide this function. Both the A and AA networks are built with just as few components as Paul thought necessary. Which are not many compared to the networks used these days. If I am wrong about the history of this please show where I am wrong. I know of another hi-end manufacturer of horn speakers that believes in using simple 1st order networks and his speakers reach above $100k. 

 

You may certainly disagree with me being in the camp of few parts and simple networks. I am aware of the other camp of complicated circuits with lots of parts. The flat button on many amplifiers and receivers are for those in my camp of thought. Nelson Pass built both his companies on the philosophy of simple circuits with only the parts necessary to correct the faults in the active devices. Most tube amplifiers are built around this train of thought as well, simple circuits with few parts. 

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For those not familiar with networks here are some examples of 1st order and 4th order and parts required for each. No specific drivers or speakers.   

 

 

4th order

 

circuit4.gifParts List


Capacitors
C1 = 2.12 uF
C2 = 4.21 uF
C3 = 26.69 uF
C4 = 37.7 uF
C5 = 5.65 uF
C6 = 1.26 uF
C7 = 50.3 uF
C8 = 11.38 uF
Inductors
L1 = 0.16 mH
L2 = 0.71 mH
L3 = 1.01 mH
L4 = 5.76 mH
L5 = 0.47 mH
L6 = 0.22 mH
L7 = 3.82 mH
L8 = 1.92 mH

 

1st order

 

 

circuit1.gif

Parts List
Capacitors
C1 = 3.98 uF
C2 = 35.85 uF
Inductors
L1 = 0.23 mH
L2 = 2.04 
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I don't know what goes on in Roy's secret lab but I hooked up a KPT-535 this week. It had the newer crossover with 37, yes I counted them, components on it. Much better than the older 535 mid and hf crossover I also had. The newer one also had the lf on it for a true three way. Way more complex then older crossovers and sounded really good. As a matter of fact, it sounded OK.

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13 hours ago, henry4841 said:

I am confused. The only reference I made about PWK was that he was aware of other orders of crossovers in the above statement. Are you saying he did not know about other networks like say 2nd or 3rd order? As an electrical engineer I can almost certainly say he was well aware of all the networks used for drivers  He chose a 1st order network being the A network for his K-horn? Are you trying to say that was all he knew?  The A was used for many years until the delicate tweeter that could not handle frequencies below 6K hz was used. Then Klipsch kept the 1st order between the bass and squawker but used a sharper 3rd order filter with a sharper cutoff to protect that tweeter in the AA for many, many years. Also he did not even use any cutoff network for the squawker but depended on the cutoff of the horn itself to provide this function. Both the A and AA networks are built with just as few components as Paul thought necessary. Which are not many compared to the networks used these days. If I am wrong about the history of this please show where I am wrong. I know of another hi-end manufacturer of horn speakers that believes in using simple 1st order networks and his speakers reach above $100k. 

 

You may certainly disagree with me being in the camp of few parts and simple networks. I am aware of the other camp of complicated circuits with lots of parts. The flat button on many amplifiers and receivers are for those in my camp of thought. Nelson Pass built both his companies on the philosophy of simple circuits with only the parts necessary to correct the faults in the active devices. Most tube amplifiers are built around this train of thought as well, simple circuits with few parts. 

Henry. I did not mean to come off  as obtuse as I did. Sorry for that. What is was curious about was how you were so sure about various statements on how Mr K designed networks. And why he did them the way he did. 
 

 

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14 hours ago, Dave A said:

I don't know what goes on in Roy's secret lab but I hooked up a KPT-535 this week. It had the newer crossover with 37, yes I counted them, components on it. Much better than the older 535 mid and hf crossover I also had. The newer one also had the lf on it for a true three way. Way more complex then older crossovers and sounded really good. As a matter of fact, it sounded OK.

Probably necessary with drivers being used. That and the fact an autotransformer is not used anymore but depend on l-pad networks for attenuation increasing the number of parts. What is usually added to increase the parts count are notch filters to fatten out the frequency response. To correctly add notch filters is not an easy task and is usually done by sound engineers with proper equipment and sound chambers. The early heritage line with their 1st order networks did not get spectacular reviews in the rags of the 70's and 80's being they depended more or frequency response curve and and not their ears to rate speakers. From literature that came with my speakers in 86 PWK says music is dynamics and my speakers are dynamic. My previous speakers were AR3a's with a flat frequency response and were dull and boring. Bought LaScala's next and never looked back. 

 

Also I should add I have never experimented with steeper networks for my speakers due to the fact I am satisfied with what my ears hear now. I feel positive about what the engineers at Klipsch are doing now as sounding excellent. Like Nelson Pass they depend on the design to achieve great sound and not gold parts. 

 

I cannot speak personally having only use my 86 LaScala's with 1st order networks since 86 but what has been said on this forum by members that have bought the steep ALK networks for their heritage speakers is that you have to increase the volume on said networks to wake the speakers up. I like having big sound at low volumes myself. I am sure the steep ALK networks sound fine though when woke up.  

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