Wreny Blick Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Hi all, I am new to this community, but have browsed past conversations as a non-member for some time now. I decided to join because I am looking for recommendations for a preamp and 2-channel power amp to pair to my Bellés as I am looking to upgrade from my current setup. This is for a vinyl dedicated system and as of right now, I am using a Music Hall mmf-9.3 turntable with the Goldring Eroica LX low output MC cartridge running to a Music Hall pa2.2 preamp and a Marantz 4230 stereophonic 2 + quadradial 4 reciever. I am back and forth on staying with Marantz or changing to a full Mcintosh setup. As of right now I am looking at the Mcintosh MP100 preamp and MC 152 power amp (I am leaning towards solid state but not totally against vaccum tube). If I stay with Marantz, I think I would keep my preamp and upgrade to a 2285. I am also not opposed to recommendations outside of Mcintosh or Marantz, those are just my personal favorites and what I am most familiar with. I have a 90's era pair of Bellés with the original AB crossover and all original components in excellent condition; I don't intend on changing anything with the speakers themselves. My budget is under $10,000 for both the preamp and power amp. Thank you all in advance for the insight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Welcome to the forum! I can see you have high standards since you have a Goldring Moving Coil. The Belles are so sensitive ("efficient") that, normally, they don't need much power. I use a Belle as a center channel between flanking Klipschorns in our home theater (also used for music listening, i.e., Klipsch's Wide Stage Stereo configuration). In our 4,257 cu. ft. room, at 13 feet, our single Belle produces 107 dB (2 dB above THX fs for frequencies above 80 Hz) with an input of 16 watts. So, surely a good 100 watt "RMS equivalent" per channel amp, at 8 Ohms, with low distortion (<0.08 THD?), 20 to 20K Hz, with both channels operating, should be fine, right? Maybe, maybe not. Even if we had a complete set of distortion figures for an amplifier, including IM, TIM, etc. (almost impossible to get unless some magazine has done a bench test), different amps can have different interactions with a given speaker, and your ears may pick up things that a bench test might not. My NADs (several C272s, 150 w.p.c., now discontinued) sound fine, but the very best solid state sound I ever had with the Khorns was with a Luxman L-580 integrated amp, also now discontinued. It had the most versatile and best sounding tone controls I have ever encountered, which could come in handy with Belles, and sure did with the Khorns. Just in case you are one of those who eschew tone controls and attempt to playback flat, hoping to hear music the way the musicians heard it, or how it sounded from the audience, or in the control booth, etc., please see all of Chris A.'s posts on de-mastering on this forum, starting with "The Missing Octave." Generally speaking, records are not flat. Rock, pop, and metal often have a substantial amount of the bass removed, so the sound can be crammed up against fs. On vinyl, even classical is often attenuated in the bass, in order to make it fit on the record, because bass takes up more space. Is this what "FLAT" looks like? From There Is No "There" in Audio By Amir Majidimehr Figure 4: Survey of 20 Dolby certified dubbing theaters showing wide variation in response. So, if you can listen to a candidate amp, at home in your music room, with your Belles, that would be best. Some stores will let you do that. Speaking of a missing octave ...people often say the Belles roll off at 60 Hz or so, but mine actually has a little peak at 60 Hz, and still sounds robust at 40 Hz (but is about -5 dB, according to REW). That's with the Belle flush mounted in the wall; I would think that against a wall or in a corner would come close to that. But, sometimes, it would be good to be able to turn up the bass on the Belles. A 6 dB increase in the bass would require multiplying the amp power by 4, so that need for 16 watts becomes 64 watts. Another 3 dB gets us to 128 watts. Fanfare for the Common Man on Crystal Clear direct to disc sounds great that way! I would expect either McIntosh, or a modern Marantz to sound fine. I would bet on Luxman, but that's likely to bust your budget. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, garyrc said: It had the most versatile and best sounding tone controls I have ever encountered, which could come in handy with Belles, and sure did with the Khorns. Just in case you are one of those who eschew tone controls and attempt to playback flat, hoping to hear music the way the musicians heard it, or how it sounded from the audience, or in the control booth, etc., please see all of Chris A.'s posts on de-mastering on this forum, starting with "The Missing Octave." Generally speaking, records are not flat. Rock, pop, and metal often have a substantial amount of the bass removed, so the sound can be crammed up against fs. On vinyl, even classical is often attenuated in the bass, in order to make it fit on the record, because bass takes up more space. I love this endorsement of tone controls. ..I feel the same way. ..And I feel similarly about the glorious Mono switch. Many older records (50's, 60's) had stereo micing that bordered on comical - the singer comes entirely from the left channel, instrumental accompaniment from the right. In such cases, these recording are so much more realistic sounding and enjoyable when played back in Mono. Hence, I would recommend any modern day S/S Integrated amp that offers tone controls (or multi band eQ, like some Macs), and a mono switch. I personally don't see any advantage w/ separates. Indeed, I've had fewer hum/hiss grounding issues with my Integrated amps than with my separates over the years - probably owing to fewer cables, and common grounding. Unfortunately, there aren't many choices these days: McIntosh, Accuphase, Luxman, and Anthem are about the only brands offering Integrated amps that feature both tone and mono controls. Go to their websites, see which strikes your fancy visually, feature-set wise, price, etc.. I seriously doubt you'll hear a significant difference b/w them as they are all engineered to be linear, quiet, and produce tons of power with distorting. Audible differences b/w such amps are so small that there is considerable debate as to whether they truly exist or are merely a product of expectation bias. And if you go with new McIntosh, don't bother with tubes. McIntosh's tube amps are so linear that they are sonically indistinguishable from their S/S gear - which to my thinking is a good thing. If you don't believe me, go to a Mac retailer and ask if any of the Sales people would be willing to do a "blind-folded" comparison of their Mac S/S and Tube amps. Mac designs their Tube amps to be linear, not "euphoric" or whatever warm/fuzzy term one wants to give to intentional distortion. And no need for gobs of power. My Cornwall III's aren't as efficient as the Belles (I think) yet I can't get the wattage meters to go beyond 10 watts without inviting a visit from angry neighbors (over an acre away!). It's crazy, ridiculous, stupidly loud at that point. Way past flirting with hearing damage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 I personally do not think you can wrong with McIntosh. For a different sound I would recommend a tube amplifier. Mc still makes one of those as well and for a very good reason. You could try a cheaper tube amplifier first and sell it if it is not for you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cicerogue Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Almost three years ago, I found a nice pair of nearly perfect Fortes and brought them home. I matched them to a pair of Quicksilver mono blocks I have had for some time. I would characterize the Quickies as laid back and it is a nice compliment to the forward presentation of the Fortes. About a year ago, I lucked upon a McIntosh MC 2105 and matching C-26 that left the store together in 1975, so the story goes. I must say that, after fiddling around a bit with the variable loudness control on the C-26, I really like what I am getting from this combination. It is punchy, when it should be and sweet when it should be. It seems to give me exactly what I like from whatever music I put through it. For the price of a well sorted vintage Mac setup, I think you could do quite well to consider it. I know...I am only complicating things by adding more options. But the great thing about buying and trying vintage McIntosh is you get back most or all or more than your investment, if you decide it didn't work for you. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryC Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 I have always envied those who can afford a McIntosh amp of any model. It always seemed like the prices were a marriage breaker. I really do like the speaker protection that McIntosh amps offer. For decades I powered my Klipschorns with an SAE tube/solid-state hybrid preamp and a home brew power amp. The power amp checked out as 55 Watts/channel. The amp alone was very quiet but when I connected the preamp there was always a small but annoying hiss when playing records with quiet passages. I solved this by putting a -9db L-pad between the preamp and power amp. This did nothing to improve fidelity but did drop that hiss to inaudible. My only point is that with efficient speakers, you don't want a lot of power. A 98db S/N ratio might sound like a good number but 98db below 55 watts can be noticeable. A few months before parting with my K-horns I powered the speakers with a (try not to laugh) Trends Audio TA-10 class T amplifier at 15 Watts/channel. The sound quality was amazing though I admit my ears are not as good as they used to be. It seemed like I lost a bit of sound stage and warmth, but a lot of what we call warmth is just distortion muddiness. Nevertheless, I enjoyed surprising detail and dynamic range in a 20' x 37' room with a 22' ceiling. The Trends really filled the room with less distortion than my home brew amp. I am not recommending the Trends but I only wish to illustrate that you don't need a lot of power. Quality in other specs is more important. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryC Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) Another thought is that you might research whether most preamp noise comes before or after the volume control. When you have hum and hiss on loud music, who cares? If it's more than 15db below the lowest current level you won't notice it. But if you're trying to catch the breath on a solo flute following a loud passage you want the least possible amp noise. Think about what this means if the noise is pre or post volume control for your typical volume control setting. Edited February 4, 2021 by JerryC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Cicerogue said: Almost three years ago, I found a nice pair of nearly perfect Fortes and brought them home. I matched them to a pair of Quicksilver mono blocks I have had for some time. I would characterize the Quickies as laid back and it is a nice compliment to the forward presentation of the Fortes. About a year ago, I lucked upon a McIntosh MC 2105 and matching C-26 that left the store together in 1975, so the story goes. I must say that, after fiddling around a bit with the variable loudness control on the C-26, I really like what I am getting from this combination. It is punchy, when it should be and sweet when it should be. It seems to give me exactly what I like from whatever music I put through it. For the price of a well sorted vintage Mac setup, I think you could do quite well to consider it. I know...I am only complicating things by adding more options. But the great thing about buying and trying vintage McIntosh is you get back most or all or more than your investment, if you decide it didn't work for you. Good advice, but beware the C28. The C26 preamp @Cicerogue got is fine, but the C28 has a long history of the right phono channel failing. I got tired of mine going in for repair at an official McIntosh repair station, so at a point when it had been freshly repaired, I took it to the biggest McIntosh dealer and booster in the SF By area (right under the mooring of the SF Bay Bridge, on the SF end -- at least then), who bought McIntoshes to check out and sell used. They called out a diminutive master tech from the their repair department, who said he needed to test the right phono channel, because of the high failure rate. Sure enough, my newly repaired C28's right phono channel failed, right in front of me! AFAIK, McIntosh has a very, very good reputation for being trouble free, but I got the one model that was a turkey. As for the C26, the manual gives a great deal of info. The action of the bass control looks ideal to slightly EQ the Belles. I hope McIntosh still provides these graphs with new models. http://www.berners.ch/McIntosh/Downloads/C26_own.pdf Edited February 5, 2021 by garyrc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 On 2/3/2021 at 10:14 AM, Wreny Blick said: looking for recommendations for a preamp and 2-channel power amp to pair to my Bellés So efficient anything with 20Watts is a lot of power Since you don't need a lot of watts, Class A is attractive Also agree, I have tone controls on my systems, but usually bypassed and using equalizers Schiit has an interesting Class A for $800, they bench test well on all of their products compared to anything at any price They also have a passive volume control you could run with a MC preamp if it's vinyl only for $50 $129 for their MC MM pre amp Or you could pair the Class A with your existing pre amp, lots of possibilities. This what I would try first if you want to go class A Their DACS also get excellent marks, all made in CA On 2/3/2021 at 10:14 AM, Wreny Blick said: This is for a vinyl dedicated system and as of right now, I am using a Music Hall mmf-9.3 turntable with the Goldring Eroica LX low output MC cartridge Marantz or changing to a full Mcintosh setup. Either Mac or Marantz will be a good solid product if you go that way. Yamaha also has some great current Integrated Amps for 2K-5K YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 On 2/4/2021 at 3:37 AM, ODS123 said: And no need for gobs of power. My Cornwall III's aren't as efficient as the Belles (I think) yet I can't get the wattage meters to go beyond 10 watts without inviting a visit from angry neighbors (over an acre away!). It's crazy, ridiculous, stupidly loud at that point. Yes, but: On 2/4/2021 at 2:49 AM, garyrc said: ... sometimes, it would be good to be able to turn up the bass on the Belles. A 6 dB increase in the bass would require multiplying the amp power by 4, so that need for 16 watts becomes 64 watts. Another 3 dB gets us to 128 watts. Fanfare for the Common Man on Crystal Clear direct to disc sounds great that way! By the way, I have boosted Common Man BASS by 9 dB, and got 25 watt peaks, but the wattage meter may have ballistics that cause it to read low on instantaneous (1/3 second) peaks. Some read 13 dB low on the leading edge of peaks. The Khorns have more bass than the Belles, as do the Cornwalls, so they would need less bass boost. The Belles have cleaner bass than the Cornwalls, though I'm mot sure about the Cornwall IIIs. Any and all boosts should be done carefully, with an ear cocked for speaker strain distortion. Speaking of ears, On 2/4/2021 at 3:37 AM, ODS123 said: Way past flirting with hearing damage With the exception of things like gunshots heard close up (because they can be so really loud), duration really counts in assessing potential hearing damage. That's why music that is "all loud," like some Rock, should be played at a lower level. After playing every kind of drum, as well as great gong in orchestras for more than 9 years, I could still hear to 16K (alas, age has caught up with me now). Here is what OSHA says: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryC Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 20 minutes ago, garyrc said: With the exception of things like gunshots heard close up (because they can be so really loud), duration really counts in assessing potential hearing damage. Actually, I have heard (that's a great authority there, right?) that short duration is more damaging to hearing than longer loudness. The ear tries to compensate (hammer, anvil, stapes) to loud noises by turning the volume down. But a sudden gunshot gives no warning. The nerve cells of the inner ear get blasted. I can attest to this. Six years ago my wife was horrified that squirrels were mounting our deck to eat her flowers in pots. She counseled me to fire a warning shot without killing them. I got my shotgun, forgetting to put on my hearing protection, and fired. Immediately I felt deafness in my left ear. My own voice sounded to me like I was talking with a bag of crumbling potato chips in my throat. An audiologist confirmed that I lost all hearing above 8 kHz in my left ear. That's because I held the shotgun to my right cheek she said. My rattling sensation has dissipated but I still have little hearing above 8 kHz or so in the left ear. Yes, I agree. Avoid loud sustained sound pressure levels. But more important: Avoid sudden blasts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 Benchmark AHB2 Amplifier and Benchmark LA4 Preamp. You will not be disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 On 2/4/2021 at 6:47 PM, JerryC said: Actually, I have heard (that's a great authority there, right?) that short duration is more damaging to hearing than longer loudness. The ear tries to compensate (hammer, anvil, stapes) to loud noises by turning the volume down. But a sudden gunshot gives no warning. The nerve cells of the inner ear get blasted. I can attest to this. Six years ago my wife was horrified that squirrels were mounting our deck to eat her flowers in pots. She counseled me to fire a warning shot without killing them. I got my shotgun, forgetting to put on my hearing protection, and fired. Immediately I felt deafness in my left ear. My own voice sounded to me like I was talking with a bag of crumbling potato chips in my throat. An audiologist confirmed that I lost all hearing above 8 kHz in my left ear. That's because I held the shotgun to my right cheek she said. My rattling sensation has dissipated but I still have little hearing above 8 kHz or so in the left ear. Yes, I agree. Avoid loud sustained sound pressure levels. But more important: Avoid sudden blasts! I have "heard" that too, from a fire arms expert, but he was not a hearing expert! I have also "heard" that the belief in question comes from a confounding of the variables of duration and Sound Pressure Level, an SPL that is far higher than anything on the OSHA charts. All single shotgun blasts are short, but their SPL is HUGE. There is no ethical way to separate the two for an experiment. Here is what the military says: 100 – 120 decibels: For example, a bulldozer, impact wrench, or motorcycle 120 – 140 decibels: Such as, a rock concert, auto racing, or a hammer pounding a nail 125 – 155 decibels: Like, firecrackers or fireworks, or a jet engine 170 – 190 decibels: For example, a shot gun blast or a rocket lift off. Compare with the measly 115 dB at the top of the OSHA Chart. From: Department of Defense Hearing Center of Excellence High Decibel Levels - Hearing Center of Excellence - Health.milhttps://hearing.health.mil › Prevention › Causes-of-Injury There is also something in the giant paperback 50 Seminal papers on Human Hearing, but I don't have a copy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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