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2 way, active ideas


VDS

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Hi, I’m in the early stages of planing to move to a 2 way, active setup.  As a cabinetmaker I am thinking of building bass bin.  I have been reading up on Peavy Fh1, California, (thanks PrestonTom for bringing this to my attention), and LaScala clone for this.  I’m drawn to California/FH1 for supposedly deeper bass, I’d like to continue w/o sub if possible.  Any ideas of what I should be thinking about while making this decision? 
Still exploring horns for top. Obviously big K402(?), k510, possibly large tractix cone? Is it generally agreed that a 3-500hz crossover is desirable? 
Thanks for any perspective on this, I know it’s a huge topic, just looking for ideas that I can research to make design decisions.

Ted

 

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50 minutes ago, VDS said:

Is it generally agreed that a 3-500hz crossover is desirable?

 

I've been on the 2-way active bandwagon for 2+ years now. I'll never (never say never) got back to passive crossovers. I think the XO point totally depends on your HF section. Once you get the hang of making the measurements the HF and LF will tell you where to cross them. I've got a HF section that is good down to 150. When I was first starting out I had tried crossing anywhere between 100 and 1,000 with most in the 250-800 range. I always "liked" the 300-ish range. Once I learned to look at the two sweeps and pick a spot where the HF and LF were close in phase and it was pointed out why it was nice to see this was in-fact in the 300-ish range. Seems like the data told me, and confirmed, what my ears were preferring. 

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50 minutes ago, VDS said:

Should ad, proper corner placement is a problem, so I’m shying away from Khorn type designs...Hi, I’m in the early stages of planing to move to a 2 way, active setup...

Any ideas of what I should be thinking about while making this decision?...

Still exploring horns for top. Obviously big K402(?), k510, possibly large tractix cone?

 

Well, that leaves you with much fewer options.  I would recommend a multiple entry horn with two 15" woofers per bass bin to get your bass extension without corners, while retaining the sound quality of a fully horn-loaded bass bin.  It doesn't have to use a K-402, but the mouth size needs to be like that of a K-402 in order to get full range.  The advantages of this approach:

 

1) no bends in the horn

2) single horn with coaxial woofers, so there's no polar coverage/lobing issues

3) It can easily be made of wood, and it will look superb

4) a miniDSP 2x4 HD ($205) is all the DSP crossover that you need

5) dialing in the DSP crossover is easy, easy, easy because no time alignment is necessary

6) you can use 1.4", 1.5" or 2" compression drivers, depending on how you design the throat of the horn. 

 

The downsides:

There are none, especially if you're a wookworker

 

The explanation and spreadsheet that allow you to do this is here: http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/Synergy Calc V5.pdf

and here: http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/Synergy Calc v5.xls

 

Here is an example of what they look like from the front (this picture shows one without a box or drivers attached yet):

 

01-jpg.117

 

Here's a picture of the top or bottom of a similar horn from the reverse side (the small midranges are not needed):

 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1ZqLgwTQkyqccA7K3udO

 

The long slots are used for the woofers, and the throat (apex) port is where the compression driver is located.

 

This is how the drivers are mounted on the back of the horn (here a K-402 is used with two 15" woofers and a 2" compression driver, but a dual-flare wooden horn would work just as well):

 

New Center reverse (small).jpg

K-402-MEHwithDanley-StyleCrossoverFilters.jpg

 

Here's a much smaller multiple entry horn (MEH) with box attached showing a dual-flare wooden horn design with woofers (the midranges behind the small four off-axis ports are not needed):

 

26dc04_fc4d3be02e1548cd89c6c942eaf61adc~

 

PM me if interested in doing a custom horn to fit your needs.  There are others here that currently use MEHs that can attest to their performance, sound quality, and ease of dialing in:

myself,

@NBPK402

@ClaudeJ1

@Cantilope

@rickmcinnis

 

I have helped many others on this forum dial in their setups using DSP crossovers, so no worries there--and I've found several tricks that can be used to dial in these types of horn-loaded loudspeakers.

 

Chris

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Here's a commercial version of the MEH that would do the job for you, except of using 3 drivers (two 15" woofers and a 1.4-->2 inch compression driver), it uses 11 drivers for very high output commercial duty (mostly very large church auditoria, etc.): https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-horn/sh-96/

 

sh96_specifications_1_031.png

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Here's a commercial version of the MEH that would do the job for you, except of using 3 drivers (two 15" woofers and a 1.4-->2 inch compression driver), it uses 11 drivers for very high output commercial duty (mostly very large church auditoria, etc.): https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-horn/sh-96/

 

sh96_specifications_1_031.png

 

 

51 minutes ago, rplace said:

 

 

I've been on the 2-way active bandwagon for 2+ years now. I'll never (never say never) got back to passive crossovers. I think the XO point totally depends on your HF section. Once you get the hang of making the measurements the HF and LF will tell you where to cross them. I've got a HF section that is good down to 150. When I was first starting out I had tried crossing anywhere between 100 and 1,000 with most in the 250-800 range. I always "liked" the 300-ish range. Once I learned to look at the two sweeps and pick a spot where the HF and LF were close in phase and it was pointed out why it was nice to see this was in-fact in the 300-ish range. Seems like the data told me, and confirmed, what my ears were preferring. 

I am getting swayed by the flexibility of actives.  I ask about crossover point to make sure i get a driver that goes low enough.  Actually as i write this I'm wondering if the lowest frequency of a compression driver can go may be determined by the horn choice.  Or is it best to stick with manufactuers rating?  

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Actually I am not experienced with the Peavy design. However, I am not sure what your constraints are.

 

I would suggest a Jubilee bass bin (my very frequent recommendation). It will sound best with the big K-402 horn, but if that violates your constraints, then the K-510 horn is surprisingly good.  I would shy away from any 3rd party horns (although there may be some exceptions). The MEH recommended by Chris is also a good option. I have only seen the discussion and the measures and have not actually built one (although I have certainly toyed with the idea). 

 

My two words of advice. When it comes to the tweeter section - worry more about the horn and less about the driver (within reason). As far as the crossover and EQ - definitely go with an active DSP (even if it is an entry level model). 

 

Again, I am not sure what your constraints are. So considerations of practicality, footprint and cost have not been factored in. 

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I believe that manufacturer's ratings of compression drivers are written by lawyers, not engineers.  The main portion of their market is very high level PA duty.  I've found that for home hi-fi duty, the crossover point can be lower than they specify, but it's best to let the horn/driver tell you where to cross over.

 

For the MEHs that I mentioned above, the crossover point is usually 450-650 Hz, and most 1.4 to 2 inch compression drivers can easily make it (especially using DSP crossovers), although it's not a lot of trouble to raise that point up to 800 Hz--it's where you put the internal "off axis" ports that determine where the natural woofer cutoff frequency is.

 

Chris

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4 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Here's a commercial version of the MEH that would do the job for you, except of using 3 drivers (two 15" woofers and a 1.4-->2 inch compression driver), it uses 11 drivers for very high output commercial duty (mostly very large church auditoria, etc.): https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-horn/sh-96/

 

sh96_specifications_1_031.png

 

 

Chris,  I dont know much about MEH, i will look deeper into this.  Obvious question to me is having 2,or more, drivers share same horn, when so much attention is paid to horn design, now we've got 1 horn for entire frequency range? I trust other know more than me though.  You mentioned another crossover besides the mini dsp, was it Yamaha? Is the mini dsp quiet and flexible enough for the long range?  Ill have more questions after i dive into MEH research. thanks

 

 

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6 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

Actually I am not experienced with the Peavy design. However, I am not sure what your constraints are.

 

I would suggest a Jubilee bass bin (my very frequent recommendation). It will sound best with the big K-402 horn, but if that violates your constraints, then the K-510 horn is surprisingly good.  I would shy away from any 3rd party horns (although there may be some exceptions). The MEH recommended by Chris is also a good option. I have only seen the discussion and the measures and have not actually built one (although I have certainly toyed with the idea). 

 

My two words of advice. When it comes to the tweeter section - worry more about the horn and less about the driver (within reason). As far as the crossover and EQ - definitely go with an active DSP (even if it is an entry level model). 

 

Again, I am not sure what your constraints are. So considerations of practicality, footprint and cost have not been factored in. 

maybe I'm mistaken, i thought you had mentioned high regard for the California bass horn. oh well.  Ive been reading papers by Earl Geddes who pointed pointed out that sound quality varies a lot due to horn choice, which to me makes it hard, we have study horn design to improve our systems sound.  good thing many of us like doing research i guess.

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If you want to go a higher dollar DSP crossover, I recommend a Xilica XP series: XP-2040 or XP-4080. 

 

The Xilica "XD" series crossovers are even higher dollar, but they allow you to plug into the crossover using a digital connection AES3.  The miniDSP 2x4 HD or 4x10 HD also allow for direct digital input, but they are just a little higher noise level than the dead-quiet Xilica XP or XD series.

 

The Yamaha SP2060 is an older design, and generally its (new) prices too high to be competitive, but I've used that crossover, too (so does Thaddeus Smith [Michael]).  They work well, but have a bit higher noise levels, but they are 2-in, 6-out crossovers.

 

Chris

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21 minutes ago, VDS said:

Obvious question to me is having 2,or more, drivers share same horn, when so much attention is paid to horn design, now we've got 1 horn for entire frequency range?

This is the real advantage of the MEH design: all the drivers couple acoustically to each other--within a 1/4 wavelength of each other at crossover frequencies. 

 

Well done MEHs sound just like full-range drivers (Fostex, Feastrex, etc.) but without the acoustic disadvantages of full rangers (i.e., no bottom end bass, limited output capability, wizzer cone breakup problems, etc.).  They are the best loudspeakers that I've heard, actually, giving the Klipsch Jubilee more than a run for its money, because there is no crossover polar disruption in the lower midrange.

 

Danley is said to be entering the home hi-fi market presently (now that the commercial PA and cinema markets are dead).  Tom Danley did a YouTube video recently, citing the (as yet unknown) "Tom Danley Signature Series". Up until recently, their business has been commercial only, with sales to home hi-fi enthusiasts being sparse due to the higher prices of their MEHs using so many drivers for extreme high SPL duty.  An SH-96, for instance, is about $8K apiece. That's a little pricey for a lot of home hi-fi folks.  But it's got 11 drivers in it...

 

Chris

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2 minutes ago, Chris A said:

This is the real advantage of the MEH design: all the drivers couple acoustically to each other--within a 1/4 wavelength of each other at crossover frequencies. 

 

Well done MEHs sound just like full-range drivers (Fostex, Feastrex, etc.) but without the acoustic disadvantages of full rangers (i.e., no bottom end bass, limited output capability, wizzer cone breakup problems, etc.).  They are the best loudspeakers that I've heard, actually, giving the Klipsch Jubilee more than a run for its money, because there is no crossover polar disruption in the lower midrange.

 

Chris

Not only sonically speaking (heard and measured), but if you factor in, for about the same price. The "DSL" former flagship, designed in 2005, is smaller than a Klipsch LaScala and fits neatly into a corner (requiring cutting down the excess bass), so your can use a big TH sub in room corners as a "speaker stand" that takes the bass cutoff from 40 Hz. down the below 20 Hz. at over 120 db output without breaking a sweat, but it does scare strangers a bit when it moves the drywall, floor, and certain body parts! LOL.

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11 minutes ago, Chris A said:

The Yamaha SP2060 is an older design, and generally it's prices too high to be competitive, but I've used that crossover, too (so does Thaddeus Smith ([Micheal]).  They work well, but have a bit higher noise levels, but they are 2-in, 6-out crossovers.

 

Chris

 

I found a great deal from a member, which made it a no brainer. One of the greater benefits I'm finding here is that it natively supports digital inputs without paying the Xilica XD prices and I can keep the music in the digital domain until the very final D/A conversion. Esoteric DAC's are now pointless for me and it greatly simplifies my device chain. With the 2-in, 6-out support I run stereo 3-way with my two subs and HF/LF mains.

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2 hours ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

 

I found a great deal from a member, which made it a no brainer. One of the greater benefits I'm finding here is that it natively supports digital inputs without paying the Xilica XD prices and I can keep the music in the digital domain until the very final D/A conversion. Esoteric DAC's are now pointless for me and it greatly simplifies my device chain. With the 2-in, 6-out support I run stereo 3-way with my two subs and HF/LF mains.

I'm glad I still have one left for future projects! The benefits and options of buying twins creates 2 users with different setups and allows 2 brains to work better than one when sharing data. This is a really good group of the "best leaves on the tree," so to speak, especially with @ChrisA's de facto leadership in this area!

 

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1 hour ago, rplace said:

 

 

I've been on the 2-way active bandwagon for 2+ years now. I'll never (never say never) got back to passive crossovers. I think the XO point totally depends on your HF section. Once you get the hang of making the measurements the HF and LF will tell you where to cross them. I've got a HF section that is good down to 150. When I was first starting out I had tried crossing anywhere between 100 and 1,000 with most in the 250-800 range. I always "liked" the 300-ish range. Once I learned to look at the two sweeps and pick a spot where the HF and LF were close in phase and it was pointed out why it was nice to see this was in-fact in the 300-ish range. Seems like the data told me, and confirmed, what my ears were preferring. 

I have been a fan of a 300 Hz. crossover point ever since  I designed and built my Quarter Pie Horn (based on the Klipsch MWM core, which I could not improve upon), about 10 years ago. I had noticed that my FH-1 got a bit funky after 300 hz. and really like the extra vocal details offered by the Klipsch K-1133 driver (yeah, I'm a 3-way plus sub man). Now that the new Jubilee will have a 300 Hz. capable driver with Roy's magical "tweeter spreader" in the K-402's throat, it promises to be a winner as well.

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7 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

so your can use a big TH sub in room corners as a "speaker stand"

 

Several times I've thought about shifting my two SPUD clones from vertically behind the mains to horizontally underneath. This raise everything just a bit closer to ear level, if not slightly higher. I don't have the ability to move mouth panels around like the OEM version, so they'd be point towards the ceiling. Are there any considerations that need to be made for that, or by having them underneath the mains vs behind?

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9 hours ago, VDS said:

Hi, I’m in the early stages of planing to move to a 2 way, active setup.  As a cabinetmaker I am thinking of building bass bin.  I have been reading up on Peavy Fh1, California, (thanks PrestonTom for bringing this to my attention), and LaScala clone for this.  I’m drawn to California/FH1 for supposedly deeper bass,

 

you can't beat the FH1 design  --simple to build --and you can even make it slightly bigger for even more deeper bass

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I have been a fan of a 300 Hz. crossover point ever since  I designed and built my Quarter Pie Horn (based on the Klipsch MWM core, which I could not improve upon), about 10 years ago. I had noticed that my FH-1 got a bit funky after 300 hz. and really like the extra vocal details offered by the Klipsch K-1133 driver (yeah, I'm a 3-way plus sub man). Now that the new Jubilee will have a 300 Hz. capable driver with Roy's magical "tweeter spreader" in the K-402's throat, it promises to be a winner as well.
Does the k402 have 300hz capabilities with the right driver? My BMS claim to go down to 300 hz. Is this something I should try?

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

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