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Jer_Hy

Quartets hold their own against Klipschorns!

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I honestly don't know. I was just backing up others that a bad source could downgrade vintage klipschorns.

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1977 K Horns need crossovers rebuilt. At least the caps bet on that. Do one then test to hear difference. Do you have them sealed into corners good??? I use pool noodles now works better. Dont forget to do the horizontal part of bass horn also. You never said what you were using for source of sound. But 70s HK 430   630  730  930 will make you hear heaven. 

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2 hours ago, ricktate said:

1977 K Horns need crossovers rebuilt. At least the caps bet on that. Do one then test to hear difference. Do you have them sealed into corners good??? I use pool noodles now works better. Dont forget to do the horizontal part of bass horn also. You never said what you were using for source of sound. But 70s HK 430   630  730  930 will make you hear heaven. 

They are sealed well, stuffed into a false corner in a  real corner (baseboard heat)

Here is the signal chain:

 

technics 1200mk2 -> allen & heath 43c -> from here I used the main outs the Khorns and the Booth out to the Quartets for testing. Amps for each:

b&k 125.2 S2-> Klipschorns

Hafler P3000 -> Quartets

(note: I've flipped the amps and outputs just to double check there wasn't any audible difference between the booth and main outs /hafler and B&K amps)

 

If i want to listen to digital music files I can use either 43c as a soundcard or I can use the line inputs for whatever else. It's a pretty fantastic little mixer for a lot of different use cases

 

thanks for the link also! I really do think the crossovers might need help, I was thinking exactly the same thing, Do one and compare. I've done a bit of soldering for work and this seems very straightforward. One question I've been mulling over is whether to do the kit or just buy new crossovers and keep the originals completely intact, mainly for allowing them to be fully original if ever needed. When I got these they even came with the original instructions (attached)

IMG_2310.jpg

Edited by Jer_Hy

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I've experienced this before due to source. I have belles and klipschorns and they need good 2 channel equipment to drive them. We thought something was wrong with my belles for a long time, then we realized it was because it was hooked up to a surround sound receiver. Once we hooked them up to a vintage Sony stereo integrated amp, they came alive. Meanwhile, newer speakers like my klf30s sounded great on the surround sound receiver. I did this same experiment by hooking up the klipschorns to my surround sound receiver, and the life was removed from them. Those vintage speakers need real 2 channel equipment. My belles are from 1979 and my klipschorns are from 1977.
That's interesting. It's been my experience with 30's that they want good two channel equipment to sound their best.....and frankly, sounded like a joke with AVR recievers. Especially Denon.

RF-7's on the other hand did ok with AVR recievers. My ears were bleeding.....but they did ok. Excellent for movies though.

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That's interesting. It's been my experience with 30's that they want good two channel equipment to sound their best.....and frankly, sounded like a joke with AVR recievers. Especially Denon.

RF-7's on the other hand did ok with AVR recievers. My ears were bleeding.....but they did ok. Excellent for movies though.

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The klf30s definitely sound better on a dedicated 2 channel setup, but didn't doubt terrible in a surround sound setup.

When I had my RF7s sounded just ok on my vintage Sony integrated amp, but when we hooked up a Carver 200 wpc amp using the Sony integrated amp as a preamp, those speakers came alive.

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On 2/7/2021 at 6:29 AM, Jer_Hy said:

They are sealed well, stuffed into a false corner in a  real corner (baseboard heat)

Here is the signal chain:

 

technics 1200mk2 -> allen & heath 43c -> from here I used the main outs the Khorns and the Booth out to the Quartets for testing. Amps for each:

b&k 125.2 S2-> Klipschorns

Hafler P3000 -> Quartets

(note: I've flipped the amps and outputs just to double check there wasn't any audible difference between the booth and main outs /hafler and B&K amps)

 

If i want to listen to digital music files I can use either 43c as a soundcard or I can use the line inputs for whatever else. It's a pretty fantastic little mixer for a lot of different use cases

 

thanks for the link also! I really do think the crossovers might need help, I was thinking exactly the same thing, Do one and compare. I've done a bit of soldering for work and this seems very straightforward. One question I've been mulling over is whether to do the kit or just buy new crossovers and keep the originals completely intact, mainly for allowing them to be fully original if ever needed. When I got these they even came with the original instructions (attached)

IMG_2310.jpg

I think a cap replacement combined with either an upgrade of the tweeters (MAHL) on your Khorns or maybe even a diaphragm replacement will bring back all the life your khorns are missing. Don't mind some of the audio snobs on this forum who want to put down folks for using the equipment they feel like using, and like to throw their supposed wealth around thinking that makes them better able to understand or produce audiophile quality sound. From what you describe, you have everything you need to make good music and enjoy your DJ skills!

 

Do a search for MAHL on this forum or on ebay. Check out the following websites for cap upgrades and diaphragm replacements.

https://www.partsconnexion.com/

https://critesspeakers.com/

 

Do research on this forum and on your khorns to find the values for your caps or for possible mods to the original crossovers.

 

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After some A/B testing between a few sets K77s it seems as though the pair originally in the Khorns was a bit dull and quiet, compared to another set of alnico and a set with square magnets. so after swapping them out things were slightly clearer in the highest octaves. Tested the ESR in the caps and they all read within .3 of spec, decided to replace them anyway with parts from JEM just in case, but after doing one and comparing the two Khorns still no discernible difference. So i supposed my ears just like the voicing of the quartets a lot! The preference does seem program dependent, an early joni mitchell song may like the quartets, but a ricardo villalobos track sounds deeper on the Khorns. 

 

I do have a smallish room so that must factor in a bit as well, but I'll be hanging onto both for awhile.

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There was a story of PWK giving a demo with Heresy's placed in front of KHorns with no announcement of which would be playing.  He'd start the demo Isecretly playing only the Heresy's which everyone (?) thought sounded very good.  Then he'd say, "Oh, let's hear the KHorns (alone)" which everone thought sounded very good and a bit better -- but surprizingly not startling so.
 
What program was used I don't know.
I had a pair of Forte ll's once.....swore they were the worst sounding speaker I ever owned.

Sold them to a guy that had pretty much evey type of Heritage speaker in his house. When I delivered the Forte ll's he had his K-horns playing powered by a 200 watt Carver amp. To me it sounded very forgettable. Nothing to write home about. In fact, it sounded pretty sad.....but anyway........

He hooked up the Forte ll's to the same amp plopped down right in front of the K-horns. At that moment, those Forte ll's sounded phenomenal. Better than the K-horns. Beats the hell outta me but that's how it went down.

So there's that.

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Just going to jump in here...

 

The k-77 tweeters might be the culprit. They tend to drop off early. I would also (haven't seen mentioned in this thread) loosen and re-tighten the screws on the crossover terminal strip.

 

Btw, that mixer shouldn't be a problem. I've used some Soundcraft mixers with my La Scalas and they worked fine.

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On 2/24/2021 at 5:08 PM, Jer_Hy said:

After some A/B testing between a few sets K77s it seems as though the pair originally in the Khorns was a bit dull and quiet, compared to another set of alnico and a set with square magnets.

what is the DCR of the   various K77 Tweeters ---the readings may help us determine if any tweeters are tired or defective

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Subjective opinion debates about loudspeakers will go on for another 75 years!

Folded bass corner horns have -720° phase shift, disconcerting to many listeners.

Some don't hear it, some don't care, just want +6dB output for their 3W tube amps.

Quartets, Forte' II's and Chorus II's are time-aligned, a huge difference for my ears.

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Properly VOICING a speaker for an application determines how succesful the design will be.

ALTEC used Western Electric research to VOICE speakers to shout dialog thru movie screens.

PWK understood Living Room acoustics, properly VOICED Klipsch speakers for home listening.

JBL just wanted to sell more speakers, tweaked the Boom & Squeak to make them sell faster!

Who is winning?  Hmmm...

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7 hours ago, HiFi Heaven said:

Quartets, Forte' II's and Chorus II's are time-aligned, a huge difference...

 

They aren't, but much closer. The only way to fully time align a khorn, though, is to go with fully active crossovers. It one of the reasons the Jubilee is so good. 

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On 2/27/2021 at 11:55 PM, RandyH000 said:

what is the DCR of the   various K77 Tweeters ---the readings may help us determine if any tweeters are tired or defective

heya, square mags 6.7, alnico 6.2 ...have tried both and while there is a slight difference the overall tonality is not greatly improved. But even the set that is clearly tired-sounding measures 6.5.

I have also switched out the K55v,  the originals measure 10.8 DCR, the "better/louder" ones measure 10.5. It has made a noticeable difference in the midrange, certainly clearer, tho still having issues with general tonality.

 

 

On 2/28/2021 at 12:30 AM, HiFi Heaven said:

Subjective opinion debates about loudspeakers will go on for another 75 years!

Folded bass corner horns have -720° phase shift, disconcerting to many listeners.

Some don't hear it, some don't care, just want +6dB output for their 3W tube amps.

Quartets, Forte' II's and Chorus II's are time-aligned, a huge difference for my ears.

 

Too true! I didn't know about the phase shift, but it makes sense with the folds. bass and phase are such a beast. I remember chatting with a tech at the 9:30 club in DC about it because they have their subs stacked facing forward and backward for some kind of room/phase/tuning issue. I'll have to do some research on that! 

 

There are two common musical attributes that seem to be different (and less appealing) in the Khorns (as compared to the quartets) across the board. 

 

1 being a general lift in the highs on the quartets that translate to more musical-sounding cymbals and breathier vocals; after switching out the drivers, this now feels reasonable and more taste-driven.

2 being a lack of cohesion in low mids to bass region. If i had to guess, somewhere between 250-80 hz. the quartets feel more cohesive in this range. When I A/B from the Khorns to the Quartets, I experience a shift in focus where this range lifts and glues the music together a bit. That's not to say the Khorns aren't clear, they are just very clear in some regions which almost pushes some of that low mid into the background. I have been wondering if it's simply this speaker design in my room, because if the Khorn is designed for maximum dynamics it would make sense that a smaller speaker that mechanically compresses a bit would glue music in the same way a mix engineer uses compression across the mix bus.

thanks all for the time taken to ponder these issues

 

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1 hour ago, Jer_Hy said:

heya, square mags 6.7, alnico 6.2 ...have tried both and while there is a slight difference the overall tonality is not greatly improved. But even the set that is clearly tired-sounding measures 6.5.

I have also switched out the K55v,  the originals measure 10.8 DCR, the "better/louder" ones measure 10.5. It has made a noticeable difference in the midrange, certainly clearer, tho still having issues with general tonality

 

the DCR indicates that the the tweeters are ok   , the diaphragms  spec out correctly if they are EV  original   , but  let's   answer this quick question , were these tweeter's  diaphragms replaced at any time with newer diaphragms or are these stock original ---the reason  being that newer diaphragms are not the same  quality as the EV  parts , however if these are EV parts , then  you've got the best sound ----and the capacitors  in the crossovers   must be replaced ----------as far as the mids drivers diaphragms , they test good and there are no aftermarkets , so they should sound amazing after the recap

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Posted (edited)

It's also occured to me that even testing the quartets in front of the khorns must be having a huge effect on the lowend. If the khorn bass bin is designed for maximum sensitivity then the passive radiator of the quartet placed about 3 inches from the face of the khorn is most likely loading the khorn bin. In essence am I using a quartet inadvertently with a passive corner loaded bassbin ? 

 

not trying to think outside the box...but literally thinking outside the box...

Edited by Jer_Hy

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Posted (edited)

This eve I played some white noise through a single quartet and klipschorn b2b with the tweeters disconnected in each, but still running through the crossovers. The Klipschorn is using the replacement capacitors from JEM. The quartet is stock.  Attached is what that recording look liked, and I'll share the recording if it's of interest. The sound of the Klipschorn was more grainy and dark from my vantage behind the mic (a tascam field recorder placed equally between the two).

 

the recording: https://freesound.org/people/JQJ/sounds/562606/

 

the quartet:

quartetnotweet.thumb.png.0b5504ce905c1f79b213eef8e8a1a2e4.png

the Khorn:

khornnotweet.thumb.png.a098ef05faed991c4b17f3b63a28f923.png

 

Edited by Jer_Hy

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Posted (edited)

If the Khorn top hats are behaving normally (and I now assume they are because I have 4 of each driver and they all sound about the same) plus new caps in the crossover, it seems the area that I feel is most recessed in the Khorns is around the K55V-to-K77 crossover point. This was only reinforced after more rounds of A/B listening with the tweeters disconnected on both the Quartets and Khorns.

 

Musical reference for those who are interested: I played the Brenda Russell song "Way Back When". The Quartets capture a lot more detail in the string section; I noticed some nice little glissandos that I wish were more present in the Khorns. The room sound around the vocal also feels more lifted and spacious. In the Khorns, the strings sound more monolithic, much deeper in the mix, and the voice is more chest-focused, with the room sound at once larger but less defined. Again, this is with tweeters disconnected. 

 

Seems widely agreed upon that the K55v cuts out lower and more irregularly than most modern drivers (even my simple field recorder noise test shows a void at 5K), so if my goal is to smooth out my perceived dip/irregular response from 5-10k, seems I could:

 

mechanical eq

new tweeters with either the same lens or a different one

new midrange drivers

change the crossovers

 

So I'd be interest in hearing anyone's experiences or recommendations,

Edited by Jer_Hy

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