Speaker Break In?

[Pondoro]

7 hours ago, Paducah Home Theater said:

 

piston engines do break in, most new vehicles start getting better gas mileage like at 10,000 miles.  Whether that applies to a jet engine or not, I have no idea, but I'm not sure what else could require break in on a plane.  

Jet engines have rotating seals. Leakage increases for a while and then steadies out. They are designed to run correctly with the steady state leakage. Manufacturers carefully break them in before shipment. But it doesn’t take long. 

[Shakeydeal]

7 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Audiophiles consider themselves to be connoisseurs who possess elevated hearing skills that allow them to hear differences between.....

• break-in periods that extend beyond minutes into hours (perhaps hundreds!);
• amplifiers that measure the same (be they S/S or Tube)
• tone controls that are bypassed
• interconnects
• power-cords
• speaker cables;
• DACs/ CD-Players;
• Bit rates and lossy compression.... 

IMHO, the truth is that all of these combined will not add up to even 5% of how your system sounds.  How a system sounds is >95% about room setup, room treatments, and speaker selection.  ..Unfortunately, this doesn't leave enough for audiophiles to bicker about or for the audio industry to profit from, so these nonsensical,  non-scientific notions will forever be embraced.  

 

It's disappointing because this explains why so few people become audiophiles.  I know people who contemplated buying nice, floor-standing speakers from an audio dealer but elected to go with Sonos because the salesman started in with "..to get the best of these speakers you'll need this (expensive) amplifier, and speaker cables, and ....etc etc..."   

 

I find it interesting that we revere PWK as this no-BS revolutionary thinker.... yet, we embrace the very snake oil he detested.

 

 

 

I can hear the difference between everything on your list except for tone controls, and that sh*t doesn't apply to me. I have paid great attention to speaker selection, setup, room dimensions, and room treatment. These things are not mutually exclusive from the other fine details that go into a great sounding system. If you don't sweat the small details you will never wring the most out of your system.

 

I would challenge you to put together a system with the same speakers in the same room. Your system will have throw away cables, a cheap DVD player spinning a burned seedee of MP3 quality material, and a cheap Pro SS amplifier using the preamp of your choice with tone controls in any position you like.

 

Mine will have decent (but not bank breaking) cables, a high quality DAC with high quality streamer, tube amp (that measures the same as your SS amp) and tube preamp (with NO tone controls, lol). All components will have upgraded power cords.

 

I'm going to say that my system will outperform yours. You will probably say there will be ZERO sonic difference. 

[mikebse2a3]

14 hours ago, Edgar said:

I have mixed feelings about ABX testing. On one hand, it serves as a very effective  filter for claims that someone can hear the color of zip ties. On the other hand, I have personally experienced situations in which I did not notice something until somebody else pointed it out, after which I could identify it easily and repeatably. So there is that aspect of knowing exactly what to listen for. 

 

"Once you notice the flaw in the glass, you can never look through the window again."

 

My opinion currently is that ABX testing can have some benefits but doesn’t reveal everything we perceive in sound reproduction and like any test can be misleading if that isn’t taken into consideration.

 

ABX testing can be very fatiguing and stressful and I believe it uses different aspects of our Brain versus when we are in a relaxed state listening to sound reproduction.

 

It is the accuracy of sound reproduction in combination with the ability to emotionally connect me with the music that is my goal and is a more complex than I believe the ABX has the ability to reveal.

 

miketn

[Zen Traveler]

On 2/24/2021 at 8:18 AM, Zen Traveler said:

Here is what Trey Cannon a Klipsch engineer said on the subject: 

 

On 12/23/2010 at 6:53 AM, Trey Cannon said:

Ok, there is such thing as break in , but we do it in 20 min with 75% `input voltage at 20Hz. The complance of the woofers is where you would see the change. However, with that said, after 8 hr at 32V they had about 1 - 1.5db more output gain...not a lot of change.

j

 

 

19 hours ago, Paducah Home Theater said:

 

The general consensus is that about 80 maybe 100 hours of normal use will do it.  

Imo and as others have said, I imagine anything longer than what Trey describes is the owner becoming accustomed to the sound of the speaker. 

Quote

 

If you want to speed it up, there's a few things that can be done.  One Klipsch exec takes speakers, wires them out of phase, places them close and facing each other, then plays pink noise all night.  Seaton Sound basically takes a woofer, plays a sine wave where it's approximately 1/2 full exertion, a few hz below Fs, for half an hour.  In the Klipsch lab they do something similar as the latter but I forget the exact parameters, do it for 15-20 minutes.  

 

[babadono]

4 hours ago, ODS123 said:

I find it interesting that we revere PWK as this no-BS revolutionary thinker.... yet, we embrace the very snake oil he detested.

Please don't speak for ALL.

I think most here are in agreement with >95% is speakers, room and room treatment. Or better yet NO ROOM, a fact I was reminded of At SWAG last year. The speakers set up outside in that open field sounded so good. With little or no reflections.

[babadono]

4 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

I'm going to say that my system will outperform yours. You will probably say there will be ZERO sonic difference. 

HOW will we make that determination? That is the crux of the biscuit

[Shakeydeal]

8 minutes ago, babadono said:

HOW will we make that determination? That is the crux of the biscuit

 

You have keyed in on a most important point. Since everyone hears differently, nothing will sound exactly the same to any two people. Which is why it's ridiculous for anyone to say there are NO differences between this thing or the other thing. And we don't listen to measurements, so shouldn't our ears be the final arbiter? 

 

The bottom line is this. If standing on my head while facing a northeasterly direction makes my system sound better to me, then it IS indeed an improvement.

 

Shakey

[ODS123]

2 hours ago, babadono said:

Please don't speak for ALL.

I think most here are in agreement with >95% is speakers, room and room treatment. Or better yet NO ROOM, a fact I was reminded of At SWAG last year. The speakers set up outside in that open field sounded so good. With little or no reflections.

 

Acknowledged.  Fair point.

[ODS123]

1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

You have keyed in on a most important point. Since everyone hears differently, nothing will sound exactly the same to any two people. Which is why it's ridiculous for anyone to say there are NO differences between this thing or the other thing. And we don't listen to measurements, so shouldn't our ears be the final arbiter? 

 

The bottom line is this. If standing on my head while facing a northeasterly direction makes my system sound better to me, then it IS indeed an improvement.

 

Shakey

 

So you have NO interest in distinguishing REAL audible differences from those created by expectation bias?  Well, you and I could not be more different in that regard.

 

My wife and I have a combined 30 years in the pharma industry.  Thankfully, there is an entire paradigm for separating real from imagined efficacy differences b/w medications seeking FDA approval.  Some would find it surprising that  something like 30% of patients who take a placebo experience a significant reduction in pain after experiencing a strain/sprain or contusion.  No harm, no foul if the placebo is cheap and safe.  ...But in the audio world, the parallel could be spending thousands of dollars on a DAC that is indistinguishable from a $50 one from parts express.  

[Shakeydeal]

Quote

But in the audio world, the parallel could be spending thousands of dollars on a DAC that is indistinguishable from a $50 one from parts express.  

 

What if it's indistinguishable to you, but a very distinct difference to me? Who is right? Or does anyone even have to be right?

[Coytee]

On 2/24/2021 at 4:19 AM, garyrc said:

One Klipsch engineer, whose name I forget (not Roy) said, speaking generally, "15 minutes."

 

At one of the company gatherings in Indianapolis, one of the engineers there told the crowd, generally 30 minutes......  that's a 100% longer time!!!

 

[Shakeydeal]

1 minute ago, Coytee said:

 

At one of the company gatherings in Indianapolis, one of the engineers there told the crowd, generally 30 minutes......  that's a 100% longer time!!!

 

 

Ahhh, no. That would be 50% longer.

 

 

[Coytee]

13 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

Ahhh, no. That would be 50% longer.

 

 

 

Ahhh no. 

 

Going from 15 minutes to 30 minutes is a 100% increase in time.

Going from 30 minutes to 15 minutes is a 50% decrease in time.

 

I was going for the increase.

 

 

[Shakeydeal]

Ahh yes, you are correct grasshopper......

 

 

 

[Coytee]

[Pondoro]

1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

 

So you have NO interest in distinguishing REAL audible differences from those created by expectation bias?  Well, you and I could not be more different in that regard.

 

My wife and I have a combined 30 years in the pharma industry.  Thankfully, there is an entire paradigm for separating real from imagined efficacy differences b/w medications seeking FDA approval.  Some would find it surprising that  something like 30% of patients who take a placebo experience a significant reduction in pain after experiencing a strain/sprain or contusion.  No harm, no foul if the placebo is cheap and safe.  ...But in the audio world, the parallel could be spending thousands of dollars on a DAC that is indistinguishable from a $50 one from parts express.  

 And the placebo test is an attempt to let a limited population determine, once and for all, using proper statistics, if there is any real difference in outcome. That spares the rest of us from wasting time and money on something that has no measurable benefit. Blind testing in stereo is an attempt to do the same. 

[Dave A]

I think all is futile unless you stick $6,000 cables in there somewhere. Don't forget the "proper" power cord and bees wax impregnated fuses too. I know, I know, but I can't help myself. These types of threads just tickle my Audiogon funny bone.

 

  Not aimed at you Fido.

[garyrc]

8 hours ago, babadono said:

HOW will we make that determination? That is the crux of the biscuit

 

Yes, if the comparison set-up isn't double blind, or at least single blind, how will anyone know that the difference isn't due to extraneous variables such as 1) the appearance of the equipment 2) the reputation of the equipment?

 

 

[Fido]

2 hours ago, Dave A said:

I think all is futile unless you stick $6,000 cables in there somewhere. Don't forget the "proper" power cord and bees wax impregnated fuses too. I know, I know, but I can't help myself. These types of threads just tickle my Audiogon funny bone.

 

  Not aimed at you Fido.

I am definitely not an audiophile as none of my cables combined cost anywhere near $6,000. Not even $600. Perhaps $200 in total but they all match and are of decent quality. Just because I can’t hear the difference between very expensive cables and my very modest ones doesn’t meant I don’t believe a difference exists. It just means I have never heard the difference except for rca cables I had running a long distance from my tt to my integrated McIntosh amp. Changing those cables to high quality Blue Jean cables definitely made my vinyl playback sound much better to me. I could instantly hear a notable difference. I now use those cables from my DAC to my integrated and feed my turntable from my rca cables from my tt to my Puffin phono preamp. My vinyl set has never sounded better.

 

btw a lot of my cables came from Blue Jeans and they are quite nice for not a lot of $$$$

 

and Dave A I never mind if you take aim at me and it makes you laugh - keep smiling

 

[Pondoro]

Interesting article on the placebo effect:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/straight-talk/201803/the-curious-case-the-growing-placebo-effect