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Speaker Break In?

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On 2/26/2021 at 2:17 PM, Edgar said:

 

I use DATS and yes, it can detect the changes.

Were you there when Roy discussed what he asked manufacturers to run their drivers through before they submitted the 10 or 12 for consideration? It was a certain amount of power, for a certain amount of time. They get them, and they test them at the lab and compare to spec. He said that some he received with no "break in" and didn't match up with what they were supposed to be, so he spoke to some of them and suggested a "burn in" of some sort so they would be competitive with the others was sort of the gist of what he mentioned.

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One thing is very consistent on this Forum. An original poster asked a ? like I did about Speaker Break-in and it quickly morphs into some other subject that has nothing to do with the ?? asked. The only thing I wanted to try and clear up was if consensus was that new speakers required to break in for hundreds of hours before the new owners could critically listen to them and form an informed opinion about them? Although some people shared opinions about the subject it soon morphed into the never ending battle about CABLES!!!!!! Too freaking funny! As if there are not enough discussions about the pros and cons of crazy expensive cables versus cheap A$$ cables. It always cracks me up! :wacko:

 

Cables, cables, cables!!!! lmfao!!!!!

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My Cornwalls sounded good out of the box, but a little tight and reserved. But a couple hundred hours later and they were great. Improvements were in bass depth and articulation, dynamics and that elusive involvement factor. I’ll be interested to hear what you think in a month or two.

 

Shakey

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Curious how people keep track of the hours their speakers have on them? Do you write down how many hours you just listened, or is it a guess? 

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Shakey's experience sounds exactly like mine consistently does.  Everything breaks in, including any kind of wire, anything mechanical, you name it.  

 

 - Larry

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26 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

Where you there when Roy discussed what he asked manufacturers to run their drivers through before they submitted the 10 or 12 for consideration? It was a certain about of power, for a certain amount of time. They get them, and they test them at the lab and compare to spec. He said that some he received with no "break in" and didn't match up with what they were supposed to be, so he spoke to some of them and suggested a "burn in" of some sort so they would be competitive with the others was sort of the gist of what he mentioned.

 

No, I wasn't present for that. But it's no surprise to me. All mechanical systems change somewhat with use.

 

Now here's another monkey wrench to throw into the works: Woofer T/S parameters change with temperature. Run it hard so that it heats-up, and its frequency response changes, even at low levels, until it cools-down again.

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1 hour ago, Edgar said:

Woofer T/S parameters change with temperature. Run it hard so that it heats-up, and its frequency response changes, even at low levels, until it cools-down again.

Not so much if the woofers are horn loaded, i.e., horn-loaded woofers use ~15 dB lower power than the same woofer being used in direct radiator mode (i.e., the horn-loaded woofer only has to move ~1/5th the distance of the direct radiator woofer to achieve the same SPL on-axis).  So if you've chosen to have a small loudspeaker, you're going to pay a price.  This is but one aspect of that choice.  Another one is notably higher modulation distortion of the direct radiating woofers.  PWK's quotes on that subject with Bruce Edgar here: https://community.klipsch.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=96455 

 

That's a little bit away from the OP's question, but not very far...

___________________________________________________________

 

You also haven't identified the same issue within passive crossover networks themselves: ohmic heating due to their having to take the full power of the amplifier to achieve their function--as opposed to using DSP crossovers which eliminate parasitic losses on the amplifier--and instead direct couple the woofers to the amplifier output channels. 

 

A third effect is the microphonics of the passive crossover components--notably the capacitors become microphonic at some SPL, probably below the SPL mentioned just below when used inside the loudspeaker box.  The case for a closed box woofer from S. Linkwitz (RIP):

 

enclosure-spl.gif

 

Chris

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On 2/25/2021 at 10:07 AM, mikebse2a3 said:

 

My opinion currently is that ABX testing can have some benefits but doesn’t reveal everything we perceive in sound reproduction and like any test can be misleading if that isn’t taken into consideration.

 

ABX testing can be very fatiguing and stressful and I believe it uses different aspects of our Brain versus when we are in a relaxed state listening to sound reproduction.

 

It is the accuracy of sound reproduction in combination with the ability to emotionally connect me with the music that is my goal and is a more complex than I believe the ABX has the ability to reveal.

 

miketn

Yes indeed. I agree. There are many more shades of gray in the world that pure black and pure white. I thinks both methods are good for the long stair climb to Audio Nirvana.

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My Fortes sounded good out of the box, bass was a little wooly for lack of a better word.   Ran them for a few days and began to question the age of the tubes on my amp.  They are old and have been my back up.   So I swapped out a new pair of KT 77.  
 

After repositioning them and a Jack and Coke , things improved 

 

Was it the new tubes?  Putting them closer to the wall which to me was counter to what I expected 

 

Was it the Jack and Coke?  Maybe, who knows but I have run them many many hours in the past two weeks and whether it was my ears adapting, placement , tube variety/weak tube?    A combination of them all?  Not sure but I have never been so happy with how my system sounds. 

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On 2/26/2021 at 2:02 PM, Chris A said:

What is the gauge of typical voice coil wire?  How long is the voice coil wire?  This is a good point made by Greg B. (Edgar)

When I met with PWK and Jim Hunter in August 1985, we were standing in a hallway at the plant in Hope. When I pointed to the Monster Cable coming out of the latest Khorn Network that was there. When I asked PWK about it, he said: "It's the marketing guys insisting on it..............a waste of good copper just to drive the 30 AWG wire in the woofer's voice coil."

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3 hours ago, Edgar said:

 

No, I wasn't present for that. But it's no surprise to me. All mechanical systems change somewhat with use.

 

Now here's another monkey wrench to throw into the works: Woofer T/S parameters change with temperature. Run it hard so that it heats-up, and its frequency response changes, even at low levels, until it cools-down again.

Yes. Regardless of whether you believe in Break-in or not, all drivers start to thermally compress at 10-20% of their rated power. Especially Woofers, which hog 90% of the power in a speaker. Heat is the enemy of any components, including speakers. This is why the 10-15 db acoustic gain of a horn keeps the power required low with a more linear operating range and lower distortion.

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38 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Yes. Regardless of whether you believe in Break-in or not, all drivers start to thermally compress at 10-20% of their rated power. Especially Woofers, which hog 90% of the power in a speaker. Heat is the enemy of any components, including speakers. This is why the 10-15 db acoustic gain of a horn keeps the power required low with a more linear operating range and lower distortion.

My brother would say to me "Believe it or else." I use the old believe it or not... diplomatic.

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3 hours ago, Ceptorman said:

Curious how people keep track of the hours their speakers have on them? Do you write down how many hours you just listened, or is it a guess? 

Hobbs meter.

 

A joke. It's what we use on aircraft, that or cycles.

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8 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

Hobbs meter.

 

A joke. It's what we use on aircraft, that or cycles.

Funny you say that.....I was going to say something like is there an hour meter on speakers! But sometimes my attempt at humor doesn't go over so well around here 😄

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20 minutes ago, Ceptorman said:

Funny you say that.....I was going to say something like is there an hour meter on speakers! But sometimes my attempt at humor doesn't go over so well around here 😄

I have three or four hour-meters, found in my dad’s barn when he died. They require 12 volts. I’d part with one or two of them if someone had a great plan...

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2 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Yes indeed. I agree. There are many more shades of gray in the world that pure black and pure white. I thinks both methods are good for the long stair climb to Audio Nirvana.

Many shades of grey and many shades of black and many shades of white! I figured this thread would end up full circle talking about photography!!!!🤘

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fB41A2238 copy copy.jpg

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2 hours ago, Chris A said:

Not so much if the woofers are horn loaded, i.e., horn-loaded woofers use ~15 dB lower power than the same woofer being used in direct radiator mode

 

Depends upon how you look at it. 500 Watts into a woofer is 500 Watts into a woofer, whether it's horn loaded or direct. A DR is just quite a bit more likely to be fed 500 W than a horn.

 

These kinds of power levels are much more common in pro-audio applications, where I come from, than in consumer applications. In fact, when I worked at Altec Lansing, they had a loudspeaker controller (the name of which now escapes me, after 25 years) that took voice coil heating into account.

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6 minutes ago, Steve. said:

I have career envy..... my job is very boring 

I once posted a little sexier picture on here and the moderator dinged me as breaking the rules but to me it was very PG rated.

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