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Forte III Upgrade??


Brian Tambe
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12 hours ago, pallpoul said:

I do have the H3 and H4, and compared side by side, same system. Very minutes differences, to my ears, at higher price. In fact, I prefer the H3's, Weird, but true.

I love my Forte III's, and don't have any remorse or desire to "upgrade", after my experience with the H3 vs H4's.

Enjoy your F-3's, they are amazing speakers. don't chase the "0.1% improvement" and save you $ for other components if you desire. 

My 2 cents. 

Looks live 10hz on the bottom end, new/better crossover point (and corresponding balancing network), tractrix horns, taller cabinet (better speaker spacing?), a wide dispersion phase plug on tweeter driver (will increase the point where the tweeter "beams" so you are going to have less of that localized effect). Roy did a live video on this on the Klipsch Channel, it was quite eye opening. 

 

Heresy III

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Heresy IV

 

image.thumb.png.b68695de750051e2e13a344161061bf0.png

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13 hours ago, pallpoul said:

I do have the H3 and H4, and compared side by side, same system. Very minutes differences, to my ears, at higher price. In fact, I prefer the H3's, Weird, but true.

I love my Forte III's, and don't have any remorse or desire to "upgrade", after my experience with the H3 vs H4's.

Enjoy your F-3's, they are amazing speakers. don't chase the "0.1% improvement" and save you $ for other components if you desire. 

My 2 cents. 

How do you do the comparison?

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15 hours ago, ODS123 said:

 

No..  I've heard each in different setups but never side by side.  ..Both sound great to me.

 

But I stand by my comment that whenever I HAVE heard new/previous iterations of speakers side-by-side (volume-matched, etc.), the differences ended up being much smaller than the manufacturer would lead you to believe.   I suspect this would be true of F3 v F4, H3 v H4, C3 v C4, etc....

 

Was Klipsch NOT an excellent speaker company that had considerable engineering, and manufacturing resources on hand when those previous iterations were designed/ built?  Yes, of course they were and did.   Has Klipsch's understanding of speaker design taken some HUGE leaps forward in the years b/w the 3's and 4's?  Not likely.

 

I'm simply encouraging posters not to succumb to buyer's remorse and trade in their 1-2 year-old F3's without first hearing the F3 alongside the F4. ..Ideally while blinded, volumes precisely-matched, etc..  ..If they do this I suspect they'll agree that the differences are small, perhaps even imperceptible.

 

 

 

You make a lot of assumptions. But ok

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1 minute ago, Chief bonehead said:

How do you do the comparison?

Well I don't mean to speak for him. But I just learned something recently. Two models of pretty much the same speaker, one was the updated Version X that replaced the previous version W. 

 

Some tracks, could hardly tell a difference, if at all, other tracks instantly exposed the differences. Not subtle, kind of "grab you by the throat difference. 

 

They didn't sound like they were volume matched, one much louder than the other, sort of depending on the tracks, etc. Turns out they were matched with pink noise within 1/4 db of each other, it was just they were putting out different energy at differently and so it appeared one was "louder" than the other, but this wasn't the case. [Yes, it was mono track, left and then right, etc. ]

 

Then, after all of that was said and done, you had to swap them for position to rule out a corner/positional preference. In the end, it was night and day, but until you really went through the possible variables and eliminated them, for a true apples to apple comparison, you were just shooting from the hip. 

 

That was that situation, I'm sure everyone has their way of doing it, but to figure out "is this an improvement" took hours of set up, and the 3 or 4 hours of listening, different tracks, etc., etc. 

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12 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

Well I don't mean to speak for him. But I just learned something recently. Two models of pretty much the same speaker, one was the updated Version X that replaced the previous version W. 

 

Some tracks, could hardly tell a difference, if at all, other tracks instantly exposed the differences. Not subtle, kind of "grab you by the throat difference. 

 

They didn't sound like they were volume matched, one much louder than the other, sort of depending on the tracks, etc. Turns out they were matched with pink noise within 1/4 db of each other, it was just they were putting out different energy at differently and so it appeared one was "louder" than the other, but this wasn't the case. [Yes, it was mono track, left and then right, etc. ]

 

Then, after all of that was said and done, you had to swap them for position to rule out a corner/positional preference. In the end, it was night and day, but until you really went through the possible variables and eliminated them, for a true apples to apple comparison, you were just shooting from the hip. 

 

That was that situation, I'm sure everyone has their way of doing it, but to figure out "is this an improvement" took hours of set up, and the 3 or 4 hours of listening, different tracks, etc., etc. 

 

What Travis said is so true. I did keep the same placement for the H4 where H3 were placed, and the same amp, source, sub, etc. I use my MAC7200, Klipsch 15" subwoofer. and with most tracks I've played, I got the same sound signature and to my ears, the difference was minimal.

 

Sub crossed at 60 Hz, and again to my ears not much difference.

 

That says a lot about the H3's, being really good, and sounding fantastic, to me. I do like the H4 as much too, and the specs and new ports are sure improvements and deliver more, but to my ears that was not a night and day difference.

 

I am not a critical listener, but I do love the Klipsch sound. I enjoy my Klipschorns, CW's, Forte's, Heresy's, ...they all have different specs, but their sound, the Klipsch heritage sound is what draws me in, and that sound has only got more refined over the years, with each new updated version of speakers.

 

Ty Travis and Chief Bohehead for your comment

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On 1/6/2022 at 10:33 PM, Chief bonehead said:

Have you heard the two side by side?

That’s the big test , and no guarantee as to which one an individual will prefer.

Edited by Tom05
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There's no easy answer for this. You should go out there and listen to the IV. Possibly side by side with three.

There are people who won't hear a difference, others who will find it's night and day, it all depends on your sensitivity and ears.

Heck, there are people who can't hear differences between amps or DACs... for others, upgrading in those fields will yield huge improvements. 

Your ears are the only ones that should decide, and no one else's! 

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Forte 3 or forte 4 what a great  dilemma we face . How many of us expected  that Klipsch would continue to refine the heritage line well after PWK ? Fortunately , key people have  kept PWK’s vision alive .🤓

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On 1/8/2022 at 5:34 AM, ODS123 said:

 

I'm simply encouraging posters not to succumb to buyer's remorse and trade in their 1-2 year-old F3's without first hearing the F3 alongside the F4. ..Ideally while blinded, volumes precisely-matched, etc..  ..If they do this I suspect they'll agree that the differences are small, perhaps even imperceptible.

 

 

Unfortunately that's bullshit.  It's a huge difference.  Biggest difference I could ever imagine on a new version of the same speaker.  That's wny king bonehead was asking if you heard them side by side.  It's not the same.  Like at all.  Imperceptible is delusional.  

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The biggest problem with the Forte 3 is that the crossovers had somewhat of a budget cap.  The new ones didn't have the same restrictions and have a more complex crossover.  You can easily tell the difference.  It's warmer, much more comfortable at higher volumes especially in an untreated room, and the upper bass actually has some slam / punch, as a good speaker should.  The woofer and radiator and cabinet is actually the exact same thing but anybody who comes to the conclusion that it should sound the same has obviously neglected the crossover issue.  The Forte 3's are plenty pleasant on a lot of material but the problem is that in a highly reflective room they can be very harsh at higher volumes plus the upper bass just isn't there.  Forte 4's fix all of these shortcomings. Some material like mellow jazz piano, you may not notice a huge difference.  Fire up some Tool at high volumes and it's a different story.  

It's not insignificant.  It's not imperceptible.  It's not small.  Nobody who has heard both would say this.  

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That being said, given the situation, I fully believe that Forte 3 users deserve an upgrade kit if at all possible.  If the cabinet had changed, sure, make them buy the new version.  But it hasn't.  Woofer is the same.  And the cabinet.  and the radiator.  and the mid horn.  The biggest difference is the crossover and the compression driver on the mid horn.  and yeah there's a new phase plug on the tweeter that's in question.  Customers shouldn't have to return or sell their Forte 3's just to buy something that's almost the same thing.  It's a significant financial burden on the customer and/or the dealer for no good reason, one that many aren't wiling to take on, yet they could be enjoying the same improved sound for a significantly lower price.  Klipschorn upgrade kits are available and allowed.  If those are, I don't understand why Forte 3 guys can't upgrade to the 4's.  

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On 1/28/2022 at 2:50 PM, ODS123 said:

I remain skeptical.  

 

Huge differences? ..Hmm..   So why when I heard them did they not sound markedly different than my iii's?  You're saying the difference is huge but to hear it you must hear them side by side.  I do of course agree that comparisons b/w two speakers should be made with them side by side, but then I'm not the one talking about huge unmistakable differences.

 

Also... You're a dealer.  ..So there's that.  

 

 

Right, because I just make up random crap just to sell stuff.  

 

Look, I'm stuck with some Forte 3's at this point.  I'd love to move them.  I have also been lobbying for Klipsch to be able to provide an upgrade kit because I believe that Forte 3 owners should be able to get the better sound without having to buy Forte 4's.  Literally, Klipsch, please make upgrade kits so I don't have to sell 4's to 3 owners.  

 

So there's that.  

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On 1/28/2022 at 2:50 PM, ODS123 said:

 

Huge differences? ..Hmm..   So why when I heard them did they not sound markedly different than my iii's?  You're saying the difference is huge but to hear it you must hear them side by side.

 

 

First of all it's not me saying they can only be distinguished when heard side by side.  Depends on the room and material.  Too many variables.  Also don't forget that our memory as it pertains to audio is literally about 6 seconds long.  Side by side takes the room and material and memory variables out of the equation, all of which are significant

 

That being said, all I know is that when I listen to a Tool song at higher volumes in a reflective room with 3's, it's going to be uncomfortable, and the upper bass just doesn't have the slam that a halfway high caliber speaker ought to.  Those are two very simple yet important things.  The 4 is a noticeable improvement on things like this.  I mean it's obvious, even without them being side by side, being played months apart.  

 

If you literally can't tell the difference at all then don't ask me to explain to you why.  

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8 minutes ago, Paducah Home Theater said:

 

If you literally can't tell the difference at all then don't ask me to explain to you why.  

we now have a shootout -

 

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On 2/4/2022 at 6:49 PM, Paducah Home Theater said:

 

Right, because I just make up random crap just to sell stuff.  

 

Look, I'm stuck with some Forte 3's at this point.  I'd love to move them.  I have also been lobbying for Klipsch to be able to provide an upgrade kit because I believe that Forte 3 owners should be able to get the better sound without having to buy Forte 4's.  Literally, Klipsch, please make upgrade kits so I don't have to sell 4's to 3 owners.  

 

So there's that.  

 

I don't think you necessarily  "make up random crap just to sell stuff."  You seem like a reasonable and likable dude.. ..But I do think you are subject to biases which predispose you to hear differences whether or not they truly exist.  ..And if those difference do exist, to exaggerate them.

 

This is not meant to impugn your character - biases are a fact of life in audio. ..Yet audiophiles generally do pretty much nothing to eliminate or even minimize them when comparing X to Y.

 

BTW, you're talking about Fortes, and I'm talking about Cornwalls.  But the point remains as the same was said about the CW3 vs W4's.  ..That the CW4's (paraphrasing) are leaps and bounds better - unmistakably so.  ..Yet to my ears, which measure very well and have been honed by a lifelong obsession with music, the differences are rather subtle and not necessarily better (ie. closer to real music) in the case of the CW4.

 

Again, I'm just urging people to not be overly swayed by the gushing endorsements the next generation of a speaker gets.  ..Such raving is predictable and generally exaggerated for a whole host of reasons.

 

 

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I think it would be a question if one would want latest technology / advancements in tweeter phase plug design & steep slope crossovers and the new, presumably higher quality mid driver. I don't think the Chief would have released this newer version so quickly after the fairly new release of the III's if there wasn't good cause or a significant difference. If I owned the III's I would not rush out to get the IV's but I would be interested in an upgrade kit when / if they became available.

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same things apply to the 1 to 2 models, ive owned forte & F2's & there is very little difference in the sound... some actually like the forte better than the F2. same thing happened back then in the late 80s through mid 90s,  people were all worked up about the 2s but the owners of original fortes didnt rush out to buy the 2s & if some did i bet they really had to reach to convince themselves the money they spent was worth it.  side by side it was very hard to tell the difference between the 2, as ODS123 said, it was very subtle at best.  

 

i have not heard the forte 3 or 4 so cant really comment on them but if someone spent $3000+ for F3s & then a couple years later spent another $4000 for the 4s, did they really make a $4000 upgrade??  i would guess not.  

 

as for the upgrade kits, unless there enough profit for klipsch to do that, i doubt we will see a kit anytime soon if at all,  would hurt the F4 sales too much.  same with the chorus3 thing, highly doubtful since it would hurt the cornwall 4 sales too much.  but one can always wish.  ;) 

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