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prodj not prod! get it right please!


prodj101

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On 12/12/2002 8:56:07 PM BLOOMIS914 wrote:

Ranger, give it up before I have your screen name altered to Ranger Rick...
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Now you wouldn't want to do that. Then I would have no choice but to dispatch a little black chinook to ... ummm ... deal with the problem. 12.gif

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HDBRbuilder- Awesome!!!..I love hearing military history buffs who know the good details. I won't pretend to be that knowledgable, just hungry for learning every chance I get regarding this type of stuff.

It's amazing how just some friendly barbs can spur a very interesting (to some) discussion. Is there any websites or links you could share about the 509th that I could read up on???

Ranger- All in good fun, as if you didn't know.

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Wow, it's cool to hear others being interested in military history. I love history! Presently, I am fighting a potentially lethal virus that I picked up while training several months ago. It's ironic, but it may be a bug that takes me down rather than an enemy. As a result, much to prod's chagrin, I have a little more time on my hand than usual. 9.gif Anyway, so next week I'm heading to my folks for Christmas and recovery and plan to visit (again) some of the local battlefields - Fredericksburg, Spotsylvania CH, Chancellorsville and Yorktown.

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I'd look out for those Chinooks. Meaning I don't think I would ride in one. The company I work for just handled a lawsuit a couple of years ago involving the U.S. vs. Boeing. It had to do with Speco gears being used in the transmissions and failing.

As for the name (mis)use. Hell! My name gets changed to tblasting instead of tblasing (pronounced Blazing) but I kinda like it. It can be attributed to anything from my days of IPSC handgun competition (Class C) to me, at one time, selling Class A firearms to my father being a retired firefighter. So either way I think it's neat.

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Ranger...my mother was from Colonial Heights...I am sure you know where that is. My great great grandfather spent some time in that area too, when the unit he was in took the train from Chattanooga back to VA after Longstreet and some of his boys did a swap out of units there at Chattanooga following the Chickamauga battle...which my GGGrandfather fought in...among others. He was a mounted rifle(mounted infantry unit)...rode a long-legged logging mule...as most of them did...horses were for officers and the cavalry...LOL!

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Ya, I am very thankful for the military. If I had not joined, I would have undoubtably done something very stupid with my life and ended up in jail. Going in the militay can really get your head on straight. I hated it when I was in, but I look back now... Na, I would would not trade those 4 years for anything on earth. As much as I hated it at the time, I had some incredible times...

Going out getting drunker than hell. Come stumbling in at 3:00 am. Lights come on at 6:00 am. Ya, three hours sleep, I am never ever drinking again. Hung over... Oh my gawd hung over, will my petty officer notice if I am not there? I HATE EVRYONE AND EVERYTHING, so hung over. Going to muster up on the fantail of the ship, leaning over the side of the ship and start feeding the fish, here little fishies, hope your stomach wants my last nights dinner, mine apparently didnt. Great, gally is closed, my stomach is doing the floppy chicken I must eat. Go to work down in a hot fireroom, inviting. Yippie, I get to fix fuel oil pumps, water pumps, leaky pipes today oh and best of all, I get to clean bildges. Oh good gawd, my stomach is... is... is... blaaaaahhhhhhhck, nice something else to clean up. I want sleep, sweet sweet sleep. Ok... it's finally knock off time, do I sleep or go out.... Ah hell with it, Hey Tom, lets go to the bar.

Good gawd those were good times... 11 years later and I remember it like yesterday. Good good stuff.

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Builder---Yes, Longstreet's men were happy to get back to Virginia after their unfortunate trip to the Western Theater. Seems that whipping on the Easterners from the Army of The Potomac was easier work than fighting the Western Yankees. Though Chickamauga was a Rebel victory Longstreet's Corps took terrible casualties at the Viniard Farm and at Snodgrass Hill. The Western Yankees outfought the Rebels at Chickamauga and their defeat was caused by Rosecran's confusion and Wood's truculence.

Then defeat and disgrace for Longstreet at Brown's Ferry and the valley west of Lookout Mountain. And Longstreet's disloyal and treacherous scheming against his commander Bragg led Bragg in exasperation to send Longstreet away from Chattanooga to recapture Knoxville. And there Longstreet was whipped by no less than Burnside, one of the dumbest Federal generals of the War. At least from there Longstreet could retreat back to Virginia and the leadership of Lee. Had Longstreet stayed at Chattanooga and been whipped there by Thomas I suppose he would have had to retreat into Georgia and maybe he'd have ended up working for Joe Johnston and getting whipped by Sherman instead of by his old friend Grant.

Longstreet is one of the more attractive Confederate generals and was probably the best Rebel corps commmander but his trip West showed him totally unfitted for independant command and also showed an ugly, treacherous side to his nature.

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HDBR, actually I am not too familiar with Colonial Heights. I think there is one south of Richmond in Petersburg (near Virginia State) and another somewhere in Norfolk near the airport (about 10 miles away from my grandmothers home). Ahh Chickamauga, Braxton Bragg and his squandered victory.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

mOOn, they ought to use your story at AA meetings. Heck, my head and stomach are getting queasy just writing this. Being in the Army (against my parents wishes), I never had the pleasure of being on a ship and visiting exotic locales, but I did have Hawaii and Deutschland (I dont count the MidEast an armpit blah!!!). After sampling some of the Bavarian brew - Hefe Weissen and/or Pils, drinking American beer after that was just not the same.

I miss those days. I miss the old NATO. At least there was some semblance of stability. Now, every third rate farmer with a rifle wants to take a potshot at the US.

Im ready for a laugh

These have been out for about a year, but I still laugh hard when I hear them.

Note: Not for the politically correct crowd.

The Hunting Channel: Bagging feral Afghans (2.93mb)

http://www.rock103.com/america/rock103.com.afghanihunt.mp3

Feral Afghans II: Flushing out Taliban (2.36mb)

http://www.rock103.com/america/rock103.com.afghaniII.mp3

Taliban Phone Solicitors (1.67mb)

http://www.rock103.com/america/taliban-phonesolicitors.mp3
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Bloomis914, did I spell it right? I never wish to offend! 9.gif

Actually my screen name came from a variety of sources:

1. Being the only Gregory (Greg) in your small high school doesn't help. I was called everything from Gregarious, to Gregori Rasputin (the Mad Monk). At least they are the ones I can repeat on such a family oriented forum. 2.gif

2. I am kind of a late bloomer when it comes to forum membership, and just plain Greg had already been taken on most forums, and I did not want to use my whole name for security reasons.

So the name Gregorius is never taken on forums and yes it is somewhat of a wordplay on the term gregarious.

Regards,

Greg

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Personally, I have NEVER been a fan of Longstreet. He was too much of a "procrastinator"...give me a commander like "Stonewall" Jackson over Longstreet any day of the week!! Whenever one has a subordinate commander like Jackson who can take his own "commander's intent" of a mission, and not only plan and execute operations that satisfy his commander's intent, but continue to follow up on his successes and totally overwhelm his enemy...over and over again...NOW THERE IS A COMMANDER!!!! Longstreet could never hold a candle to Jackson as a corps commander...or ANY other kind of commander!! I would have to say, as R.E.Lee did, that when Jackson was tragically killed, Lee DEFINITELY lost his right arm!!! A right arm he never got back!!

Ranger...my mom was from the Colonial Heights that is now a part of Petersburg. Her family was originally from North Carolina tobacco country, but her parents and some of her other kin migrated up into that area over the years between 1928-1935. Railroad people at the time. I still have family in both places...the ones in NC are still tobacco producers.

My GGGrandfather was born in GA in 1822, but his family migrated westward...and he was the first one to get to Arkansas with his wife in the 1840's. He enlisted in the Confederate forces at the beginning of the war, was sent home in 1862 as being too old, and within a month was back in the army again in another unit...after they lifted the age restrictions...LOL! He rode the same logging mule throughout the war, had not one single war wound, but that mule had plenty of them...LOL! His own personal rifle he carried throughout that conflict was a .40 cal Gemmer, and is still in the family...he was known as an ornery old cuss, headstrong, and proud...and he died in 1906.

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I don't have as harsh a view of Longstreet as others on here have stated. Clearly, Lee's "Old Warhorse" was not of the same caliber as Jackson, but I still have a favorable view towards him. However, the critiques I've read on here requires closer scrutiny on my part. Time to go back to the history books for a little homework.

Okay a little trivia (related to the subjects being discussed): What happened in this building? (Attached picture - I took this photo earlier this year)

post-9658-1381924581155_thumb.jpg

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Builder---I disagree strongly on Longstreet. While Jackson was certainly better at independant command, as was shown by the Valley Campaign, Longstreet was every bit Jackson's equal as a corps commander. Look at the record.

In the Peninsular Campaign Jackson was dilatory and confused while Longstreet was the most effective Confederate subordinate.

At 2nd Bull Run Jackson is masterful at carrying out Lee' orders to bamboozle Pope and fights an effective defensive battle. Longstreet organizes and launches the massive counterattack that drives Pope from the field.

Both were superb at Antietam.

At Fredricksburg Jackson left a seam in his defense that Meade drove hard into. If not for Franklin's incredible timidity and stupidity the Federals would have busted Jackson's position wide open. Longstreet held his section of the line with no problems.

Chancellorsville. Longstreet was detatched from ANV. Jackson made his famous flanking move and routed the 11th Corps aided greatly by stupidity of Hooker and Howard. The next Federal corps stabilized the line and Jackson was killed looking for a seam.

Lee institutes a 3 corps organization for ANV with Hill and Ewell promoted to corps command. At Gettysburg Longstreet is by far the most effective corps commander. Hill and Ewell do well the first day and totally tank the rest of the battle. Longstreet fights superbly the 2nd day taking on the entire Federal 3rd Corps and most of the 5th and 2nd. Hill fails to come to Longstreet's support. On the 3rd day a delusional Lee orders Longstreet to assault and an uninvolved Lee and an apathetic Hill watch as Longstreet's assault is crushed. Hill once again is totally inert.

I think Longstreet's performence on the 2nd day at Gettysburg is equal to that of any corps commander in the war and matched only by Thomas holding the line the 2nd day at Chickamauga or by Sherman's and MacPherson's actions as Corps commanders during the Vicksburg campaign.

When Longstreet returns to ANV he delivers a smashing attack against Grant's left in the Wilderness that almost undoes the AOP, indeed would have undone any of the previous Federal generals before Grant but Grant is not disturbed. Longstreet was severely wounded in this attack and returns to ANV basically in time to evacute Petersburg and run to Appomattox.

Longstreet became a Republican and a Catholic after the War, neither very popular in the South. He also refused to play the game of deifying Lee and spoke and wrote frankly about Lee's faults and mistakes. This made him very unpopular in the South and a cabal of "Lost Cause" ex-Rebels then tried to make Longstreet a scapegoat for Lee's (and their own) mistakes. Longstreet's reputation suffers to this day from these slanders.

Longstreet certainly failed at independant command but as a corps commander I put him in the top rank with Jackson, Thomas, Hooker (another superb corps commander who failed independant command) Sherman, MacPherson, Wood, Humphreys, Parke and Logan.

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Ranger,

I am not familiar with that building...or maybe I have only recollections of it from another angle...it rings a bell...but I can't remember.

As for Longstreet...he was a good corps commander...but his main problem was in never being to interpret his commander's intent very well in missions assigned to him. He tended to carry out his missions "to the letter" of his assignment...without following up on opportunites that presented themselves in the heat of battle. Not only that, but he had a bad habit of "dilly-dallying around" in the carrying out of his orders...taking too much time to set in motion the next phase of the battle plan. Historians often wonder if this habit of his was due to his often disagreeing with the overall battle plan of his commander...but nobody can actually say for sure. What he wrote of after the war, though, shows he had some personal issues towards some of the strategic and tactical orders he was supposed to carry out...and his actions during those engagements prove it! That is probably where his leadership ability was so intently superceded by that of Jackson.

For example...Jackson is given a mission to "keep 'those people'(as Lee called his enemy)busy over there so that they cannot join forces with their elements over here"...and Jackson not only "keeps them busy", but also totally humiliates them and forces their withdrawal from the Shenandoah Valley!...doing this with a force far inferior in combat power, with the exception of the "speed and surprise" factors!! He totally understood his commander's intent...but he also took every opportunity to follow-up on his successes...thereby often WELL-EXCEEDING his mission's original purpose!!

It is amazing to see the differences in leadership style between Jackson (a harsh taskmaster who pushed his troops to and beyond normal limits of the time but was still much-loved by them ...in no small part due to their successes under his leadreship!!) and Longstreet(who was loved by his men because he showed a genuine concern for their lives, and refused to waste any of them in what he perceived a futile battlefield gesture...his BIGGEST problem as a commander!)...and to see the results of their leadership styles...and to top that off...the pride in which their subordinates took in their commanders and their own accomplishments!!

At no time in history, has a commander moved infantry at the speed in which "Jackson's Foot Cavalry" moved...thrown them into battle with no rest, successfuly run an enemy force from the field of battle, and followed-up by doing the same thing yet again...over and over...showing up at the places the enemy least expected to be engaged...he was the MASTER of speed, surprise, and immediate application of combat power!! It wasn't his ability to use his forces in just that manner and soundly defeat his enemies that made him famous...instead it was his ability to force his enemy into BELIEVING that their positions were untenable, thereby forcing their withdrawal. His mastery of deception...using speed and pin-point concentration of combat power with much smaller forces while still convincing his enemy they were facing a much larger force...was simply amazing!! Jacson's greatest ability was in successful application of what is now called the "elastic defense"! He excelled in it!

Commanders like Jackson throughout history have been few and far between.

There are many who look at the events of Gettysburg and don't see the forest for the trees in Lee's thinking...especially in the events of July 3, 1863. The most important point here is that Lee's assigned mission from the very beginning of his take-over of the ANV was the DEFENSE OF RICHMOND, and the continuing ability of the Confederacy to survive, so that the Union would eventually tire of the war and hostilities would cease! That was the strategic plan. Lee had the least tenable situation when the battle began. Hell, the only reason he went up there to begin with was as a demonstration, and to draw some of the gathering forces AWAY from Richmond!!

He had three options: 1. Defeat the army that was attacking him...but that was NOT gonna happen, and he knew it! His force was not gonna get any larger, and what he was up against WAS!! 2. Take the high ground and duke it out...but the high ground was already taken, and if he re-positioned his force to a better piece of terrain, he would shortly be under seige, leaving an open door for forces to enter Richmond and end the war. 3. Kick his enemy between the legs, and hopefully, while they recover from it, he has time to get the hell back to Richmond...securing a few more months of continuance of the war...the option he took!! Pretty simple!! The events of that last day of battle left the doorway he needed to exit through open for him...and he figured after that much fighting, Meade would give his own forces the rest they needed before following him....and if he was REALLY lucky, he just MIGHT be able to turn the union flank, and have a semblance of victory on the field of battle...BEFORE hauling azz back to Richmond!! So he did what he did...and he got back to Richmond...which was the main reasoning behind what he did to begin with!! It appears that his subordinate commanders...and, in turn their subordinate commanders...just never REALLY understood what his "intent" in all of it really was!!

Jackson ALWAYS understood the strategic intent!!

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Hmmm? My post didn't take the first time. Ooops, I forgot what day it is.

The photo is a shot of Guinea Station, VA. This is the place where Stonewall Jackson died from wounds suffered at Chancellorsville.

There is local folklore that says this place is haunted. About 10 minutes after I had taken that photo, I decided to get a shot of Jackson's deathbed (looking through the window). Just as I snapped the camera, a knocking sound came from the building. Startled, I jumped back like a little kid. My mom, who was with me, smiled and said it was the wind. I told her that there was not a cloud in the sky and no wind at all. Wooooooooo! 6.gif

After that, no more thought was given to that moment. About a week later, as I started looking at all my Fredericksburg photos on my computer, I came across the shot of Jackson's deathbed. In the photo, I saw a ghost image of a bearded man sleeping in the bed. So far, about 50% of the people that have seen the photo can see it, the other 50% can't.

If y'all are interested, sometime this evening I can upload the image and let you be the judge.

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Builder---No doubt of Jackson's talent though you compare him to Caesar, I don't think he was that. But when Lee had both Jackson and Longstreet as corps commanders his army was in very good shape. Note that Jackson's aggresiveness got him killed and this must count against him. It's not a corps commander's job to hunt seams in the enemy line from the front. Had he acted with more sense he's have served the Confederacy better by staying alive.

For another master of deception, fast movement and grand strategic vision look at Grant's Vicksburg Campaign, the finest fought by any American with the possible exception of Scott's taking of The City of Mexico.

As for Gettysburg, well the whole campaign and battle was really only a sideshow anyway. The real action at the time was at Vicksburg and in Middle Tennessee. Had the Gettysburg campaign never happened little would have changed but the Vicksburg and Tullahoma campaigns brought the end of The Rebellion nearer, much nearer. The Confederacy could afford thier losses at Gettysburg but not the losing of Vicksburg and Chattanooga. The War was won in The West by the Westerners.

I would argue that a Federal loss at Gettysburg would actually have hastened the federal victory. Such a loss would have forced Washington to put The Army of the Tennessee on the boats for Cairo and then on the cars for Pennsylvania. Note the quickness and ease with which the 11th and 12th Corps were shifted from Virginia to Tennessee after Chickamauga. The 9th Corps could be left in Vicksburg and the 16th in Memphis. This frees the 13th, 15th and 17th to go East with Grant to fight Lee. The Western Yankees are unwhippable and with Grant in command and Sherman, MacPherson and Ord as corps commanders Lee and the ANV are going down baby. Lee's mojo doesn't work on the Illinoisans, Hawkeyes, Hoosiers and Buckeyes who've been looking at Rebel backs for 2 years, ever since Belmont and Fort Donelson. Afterall Lee and ANV never did fight the Federal first team did they?

Meanwhile in Tennessee Rosecrans fights Bragg south of Chattanooga and without the reinforcements from Lee Bragg goes down and Rosecrans advances on Atlanta and takes it in the fall. The whole war could have been wrapped up by Christmas of 1863. Whaddaya think? :-)

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Gregorious - I thought you name came from the definition of that or a similar word that meant you talked so much that you caused annoyance. I belive that is what gregorious means... who knows though hehe

Ranger - if you are having problems with the pic, email it to me and I will post it for you! 1.gif

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