Edgar Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 Properly designed Zobel networks pretty much eliminate these problems. That's an art in itself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 Thisย Article by PWKย ย fromย November 1958ย isย ------Called the Trouble with Attenuators - ย The Trouble With Attenuators by PWK.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 59 minutes ago, Edgar said: ย Not under the classic definition of harmonic or intermodulation distortion, which result from nonlinearities in the system. This would just be frequency response variations. What, no PHASE variations in the respective bands? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 1 hour ago, henry4841 said: Would not call it distortion and the effect of resistance changes may effect the amount of attenuation but at such a small amount not anything audible. Even an autotransformer has resistance as well as capacitance but neither are significant enough to be meaningful. Electrical engineers get down to specifics and tradeoffs and the ones at Klipsch now do not think it meaningful enough to matter by their chose of discrete l-pad networks. There are electrical engineers who participate on this forum who could say more on this subject and specifics of how much and the effects between different ways of attenuation. There are very few speaker manufactures that use anything other then L-pads, either discrete are adjustable for attenuation. I am sure there are exceptions like most everything.ย The one negative of an adjustable L-pad is what happens to all controls is that over time they can be a problem but we are talking 15 years and a shot of deoxit cures that.ย As a former Printed Circuit Board designer (PCB), I say it's a Production Issue/Consideration also besides Electrical/Sonic performance. The trend at Klipsch, for the last 30 years, has been to use PC Boards with single or double layer copper to accommodate the increasing parts count required to do higher order, more complex Dividing Networks (crossovers). Hand labor is expensive when you have to solder to the terminals on an auto-former, screwed down by hand to a piece of plywood. PC Boards can be Wave Soldered on an assembly line for much greater economy, quality, and consistency. If all Axial Leaded components are used, they can be inserted by Universal Equipment that also cuts and trims the leads. They can also be outsourced to many AMERICAN assembly houses as well as China or Mexico. I don't know what the Per Capita Overhead is for the Klipsch Factory in Hope, but I do realize that only the "Top of the Line" Products are made there for the markets that can afford them.ย Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 56 minutes ago, Edgar said: Properly designed Zobel networks pretty much eliminate these problems. That's an art in itself. The terms "properly and art" allow for an awful lot of "Kentucky Windage", rather the applied SCIENCE, on the part of DIY guys that don't have proper equipment, aye? ย Me quoting PWK quoting Dr. Irving Gardner: "You can't make what you can't measure because you don't know when you have it made." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 45 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said: What, no PHASE variations in the respective bands? ย "Frequency response" generally includes both magnitude and phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 30 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said: The terms "properly and art" allow for an awful lot of "Kentucky Windage", rather the applied SCIENCE, on the part of DIY guys that don't have proper equipment, aye? ย Part of the problem, as with so many aspects of high fidelity audio, is the definition of "correct". I've designed audio equipment that was mathematically, scientifically, morally, and ethically "correct" (well, maybe not those last two) that didn't sound as good as other equipment in which I allowed a bit of "Kentucky Windage". ย All you need to design a Zobel is the ability to measure impedance magnitude and phase (something like DATS will do it) and the patience to try different values of resistance and capacitance until you get what you want. The hard part is deciding what you want! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 So can one hear a degradation in sound when L-pads are used as opposed to not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 Just now, CECAA850 said: So can one hear a degradation in sound when L-pads are used as opposed to not? ย Yes, the sound is similar to using the wrong color zip tie.ย ย ๐ 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 2 minutes ago, Edgar said: ย Yes, the sound is similar to using the wrong color zip tie.ย ย ๐ As it's adjustable, it would be similar to color changing zip ties then. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 I luv a good zip tie discussion...please carry on๐ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 6 hours ago, henry4841 said: I am not familiar with this type but if it works it may be OK but not for me when a couple of resistors do the same thing. Even an autotransformer is cheaper than it.ย ย ย ย It is an autoformer or sure looks like one.ย Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 This looks fancy.ย Not sure what design it is and not smart enough to guess without doing a bunch of reading on the Google, but has mid and tweeter attenuation using the 3636.ย Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 2 hours ago, CECAA850 said: So can one hear a degradation in sound when L-pads are used as opposed to not? turn the tweeter all the way down...there's some degradation for ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicroMara Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 4 hours ago, babadono said: I luv a good zip tie discussion...please carry on๐ Zip Tie discussions werenยดt successful in the past and can lead to thread beeing closed .....๐ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 6 minutes ago, MicroMara said: Zip Tie discussions werenยดt successful in the past and can lead to thread beeing closed .....๐ Keep the Chief happy...he may be a fan... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 7 minutes ago, billybob said: Keep the Chief happy. and do not use Lpads in Klipsch Speakers - 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 1 minute ago, RandyH000 said: and do not use Lpads in Klipsch Speakers - Not certain of his views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 4 minutes ago, billybob said: Not certain of his views. PWK did not favor Lpads going back to 1958 The Trouble With Attenuators by PWK.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted April 14, 2021 Share Posted April 14, 2021 13 minutes ago, RandyH000 said: PWK did not favor Lpads going back to 1958 The Trouble With Attenuators by PWK.pdf 779.13 kB ยท 0 downloads Talking about the Chief's views. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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