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My Belle clones just not sounding right...


avguytx

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On 4/29/2021 at 7:35 PM, Kalifornian said:

Im going to chime in here. Ive owned (in the following order) LaScala, Belle, and Jubilee.  The LaScala and Belle's always had something missing or just not quiet right no matter if they were stock or altered they just never filled the spot.  The Jubilee with active xover are awesome and fill everything the other two were missing and then some.  Yes the price difference but if i had just skipped the la scala and belle the money would have paid for the jubilees.  I would recommend ditching the Belles. Unless you are in to the endless fiddling to try and find the right sound....

You are basically looking at a 2 1/2 foot horn that stops being one at 104 Hz. vs. a 5 1/2 foot horn that behaves more like a Khorn in a corner. I owned may LaScalas and also Jube Clones. No mystery at all to what you hear.

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Perhaps you have not the good drivers for your crossover ..

 

I made La Scala clones with al-3 type crossovers, eminence kappa 15c, atlas sound pd-5vh squawker, b&c de10 tweeters ... but i found a hole in the mids ..

 

The pd-5vh (like k-55-v) is not made to work with the al-3 crossover witch was done for the k-55-m

 

Since that, i have built type-A crossover and it works much better.

 

But i also have genuine Cornwall IV .. and they sound very very good.

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On 4/30/2021 at 12:19 PM, avguytx said:

 

Thanks for your input.  I'm sure you remember that I'm the one that bought the Belle parts from you...grills, K-500's, AA crossovers, etc.  I'm sure this is going down as my hearing getting worse and I've had other people tell me that they sound great, which supports my thinking.  But, the ads L1230's just do everything better for my hearing as to what I can hear at this point and time plus they cover from bottom to top without the need for a sub.  As much as a pair of Jubilee's would be great, I really don't have the room for a K-402 atop of the bass bins with the way the room is shaped on the short wall.  They would have to go too close together to not touch the slanted ceiling which would not be optimum.  The long walls are 54" tall where they slope up to 96" like many above garage rooms do.  Klipschorns would work 15 feet apart (corner to corner) but I don't care to spend that kind of money on older used models or new models, which I can buy for landed dealer price from many dealers I've known in a 5 state area for 25 years.  I just don't need that much anymore.  Hell, I'm contemplating selling all my LP's off of which some I've had since I started buying them in the late 70's.  It's been 6+ months since I spun an album; I mainly stream Spotify because, again, I can't hear the difference between them and Amazon Music HD, Tidal, or any of the others; which sucks.  Or, I listen to FLAC files from my NAS via JRiver.

 

Again thanks for your input and everyone else.

Ah yes! Also side note, havent touched my lps in months. Hi res streaming quality is so good and the ease of making playlists and discovering new music just make LP's too much hassle...

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On 4/13/2021 at 10:19 AM, avguytx said:

 

Yes, I've heard a stock set a couple of times in the last few years.  Pretty similar on the results.  It's leading me to believe it more of my hearing changing for the worse...or different.  But in comparison, the ads L1230's sound awesome.

 

 

Klipsch K-33-E woofers (bought brand new), K-500 horns with A-55G mids, CT120 tweeters and Type AA crossovers I built using new Autoformers, Audyn caps and Erse inductor for woofer (the better one).  They were all new drivers and parts.  I use the Onkyo Reference gear primarily; P-3000R preamp, M-5000R amp (80x2), C-7000R CD (rarely), Pioneer PL-518 T/T, and Amazon Music HD (mainly) & Spotify.

I have never listened to the Belles, but i think i had a simular problem with some cornwall converted cornscala's i built.  Using B&C 85(zxpc horn) and 120 drivers with a Kappa 3015lf woofer and ALK universals.  Very vailed and lifeless unless on turn the volume to blast.   I borrowed a pair of DeanG universals from a member here that were built for his Khorns.  I had to attenuate the mids 5db above the woofers 96spl spec and run the DE120 wide open with no attenuation and these things are now simply bad ***.   I do not like the

 ALk universals with the audyn caps.   Maybe its just your audyn caps.   1559448070_DeanGuniversal.thumb.jpg.8d06fdb647fcb9b94c1cdfdfc1c68506.jpg

IMG_0934.JPG

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To a larger degree, I find myself aligning with Claude and Jim. The panels resonate like a LaScala, and it very well may be that you are just sensitive to this. And like Jim said, you may just prefer a/d/s, which sound very good. Btw, I always preferred the L1290 to its bigger brother. 
 

My LaScalas had a similar driver complement, using AAs, and I really enjoyed them. 
 

Very doubtful that drivers, capacitors, or networks have much of anything to do with this problem. There are simply far too many people using this particular combination of parts without complaint. 

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6 hours ago, mopardave said:

I have never listened to the Belles, but i think i had a simular problem with some cornwall converted cornscala's i built.  Using B&C 85(zxpc horn) and 120 drivers with a Kappa 3015lf woofer and ALK universals.  Very vailed and lifeless unless on turn the volume to blast.   I borrowed a pair of DeanG universals from a member here that were built for his Khorns.  I had to attenuate the mids 5db above the woofers 96spl spec and run the DE120 wide open with no attenuation and these things are now simply bad ***.   I do not like the

 ALk universals with the audyn caps.   Maybe its just your audyn caps.   1559448070_DeanGuniversal.thumb.jpg.8d06fdb647fcb9b94c1cdfdfc1c68506.jpg

IMG_0934.JPG

 

When I tri-amped my K-horns, Yamaha 2060 I think, I tuned them by specs and they didn't sound right, then I said screw it and just tuned by ear.  They sounded the absolute best that way.  The bass came alive and they finally sounded right and no subwoofer needed.  

Mo st likely my room, but this was my experience. 

 

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10 hours ago, Deang said:

To a larger degree, I find myself aligning with Claude and Jim. The panels resonate like a LaScala, and it very well may be that you are just sensitive to this. And like Jim said, you may just prefer a/d/s, which sound very good. Btw, I always preferred the L1290 to its bigger brother. 
 

My LaScalas had a similar driver complement, using AAs, and I really enjoyed them. 
 

Very doubtful that drivers, capacitors, or networks have much of anything to do with this problem. There are simply far too many people using this particular combination of parts without complaint. 

Thanks for chiming in, Dean. I'd been wondering how and where you've been. I had tried sending you a message but they were disabled.  I think what it really boils down to is that, for the broad range of music I listen to, the L1230's cover the spectrum better for my room and I don't have jack around with them in order for them to sound "right".  I just got notice that the mid domes I sent to Richard So in Phoenix will be back Tuesday after a month wait of being rebuilt.  He did the tweeters last fall.  

 

I will decide soon what to do with the Belle clones but I imagine I will be picking up a pair of satin black version 1 Epic CF-3's about 25 minutes from me.  I miss the pair I sold and I still believe @Chief bonehead really outdid himself on this line. They were way ahead of their time. With a pair of these on one wall and the ads L1230's on the other, I believe I'll be set. I thoroughly enjoyed the build of my Belle clones and I know they're not worth what a set of originals are, but I do believe they were built about quite solid.  Maybe someone out there will enjoy them if I decide to part ways with them. 

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I've been on moderated posts since January and finally decided to just a take a break from here. They're still watching me close because hey, you never know what I'm going to say. 🙂

 

I recently made a lateral move to ATC. I've got a pair of SCM20's and some SCM40's on order. So, I know the allure of good soft domes.

 

You know, you could brace those side panels and see what happens. 

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16 hours ago, Deang said:

I've been on moderated posts since January and finally decided to just a take a break from here. They're still watching me close because hey, you never know what I'm going to say. 🙂

 

I recently made a lateral move to ATC. I've got a pair of SCM20's and some SCM40's on order. So, I know the allure of good soft domes.

 

You know, you could brace those side panels and see what happens. 

 

I'd always thought the side walls on the Belle bins wouldn't resonate the same with less real estate, but, there's still real estate there. I never finished the grills so it wouldn't be hard to do really so that's an option.  Besides that nasty hump at 160 to 200hz, the mids and highs are just not as musical as the L1230's are...or the CF-3's. But I still blame the majority of that on my seemingly ever changing hearing.  Sucks.

 

Hope all is going well on your end of this crazy world. 

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Here's a stupid troubleshooting idea, not sure if it makes sense. To figure out if it is in fact the cabinet resonance, can you put some clamps across the front and rear of the cabinet to see if the sound gets better? 

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12 hours ago, dtr20 said:

Here's a stupid troubleshooting idea, not sure if it makes sense. To figure out if it is in fact the cabinet resonance, can you put some clamps across the front and rear of the cabinet to see if the sound gets better? 

 

Side to side wouldn't be that hard to clamp with and I have 2 different types of long-ish clamps that should reach the 30".  It's easily audible at that 150 to 200Hz range and it shows up on various RTA apps in getting a rough idea confirming what I hear...and my wife...who can hear lots better than me.  (and she'll tell you that)  But there's so much gain at that frequency that it takes away from the rest of the audible range.  I recall having to tune out that range in the "better" SQ car audio systems back in the day.  Cars were just bad about having that "hump" at that frequency and many times a parametric EQ was used or occasionally Rane EQ's if we were really seriously tuning.

 

All I know is that it's been hard listening to these for the last month as the L120 mids were being rebuilt but should be back Wednesday.  Then, the Belle clones will move to their idle position till I figure out what to do with them.  The idea on bracing is a good plan that I may do like has been done on many La Scalas.  Baltic Birch, as good as it is, can still resonate with that much real estate on the side walls.  It will be easy enough to do and I will come up with some other version of grills in place of the "V" shape.

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