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Appropriate room size for which speaker?


Hifi72

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Hi, I am new to the forum, and I have a few questions regarding Klipsch speakers and best matching for my room size.  I am hoping to get some advice from members on which direction I should go.  I am in the midst of building a new home, and I have a room where the hifi gear will "live" that is roughly 14ft x 11ft x 9ft.  I am considering replacing my current amp and speaker setup (Simaudio Moon 250i, Focal Aria 926) with a Yamaha as1200 and a Klipsch speaker like the 8000f.  My music tastes are primarily classic rock, and at times some country from the same era (60's-90's), and I find my current system is lacking a bit when it comes to those two genres.  I am looking for a little more excitement and rhythm in my system without going overboard and end up with bass problems for the size of my room.

 

If any one has some advice on what would be a more optimal setup I would appreciate it.  My budget is likely maxed at the combined cost of the Yamaha and 8000f.  Would I be better off with a less expensive amp and Heresy's?  I may have a chance to demo both soon, but obviously not inside my particular room dimensions.  I don't mind spending less if that's what works. ha

 

Thanks!

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5 hours ago, Hifi72 said:

Would I be better off with a less expensive amp and Heresy's?

Usually...i.e., your present integrated amplifier would probably do the job quite well, saving a lot of money to put on loudspeakers instead.  The better the loudspeakers, the better the sound.  That rule of thumb doesn't usually extend to amplifiers by nearly the same scale of improvement. 

 

I'd go as far as to say that Cornwalls would sound even better (even in the size room you have)--and sometimes these are available for less than $1k USD a pair--used.  A used pair of Forte I, II, or III, or Chorus I or II would also do very well--if you can find a good used pair for a reasonable price under $1K.

 

The issue with Heresies is not so much the sound quality but the problem of putting them on the floor leaning backward (as Paul Klipsch recommended).  The short height of the Heresy is problematic for many people trying to integrate them into the room without putting them on stands that deprive the woofers of room boundary loading (i.e., close proximity to the walls and/or room corners).

 

The issue with RP-8000Fs is the crossover frequency (i.e., 1750 Hz), which means the woofers are direct-radiating from the low frequency cutoff (32 Hz) to 1750 Hz.  This is the issue with the RP-8000F and all the other "tower home theater" two-way loudspeakers from Klipsch (with the exception of the Palladium series).  The horn-loaded midranges of the Heresy, Cornwall, Forte and Chorus is the difference in sound quality--i.e., having controlled directivity down to 400-700 Hz is a much better proposition from a room placement perspective.  You get to place the loudspeaker closer to the walls to pick up room gain when using horn-loaded midrange loudspeaker models. 

 

JMTC.

 

Chris

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4 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Usually...i.e., your present integrated amplifier would probably do the job quite well, saving a lot of money to put on loudspeakers instead.  The better the loudspeakers, the better the sound.  That rule of thumb doesn't usually extend to amplifiers by nearly the same scale of improvement. 

 

22 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Usually...i.e., your present integrated amplifier would probably do the job quite well, saving a lot of money to put on loudspeakers instead.  The better the loudspeakers, the better the sound.  That rule of thumb doesn't usually extend to amplifiers by nearly the same scale of improvement. 

 

I'd go as far as to say that Cornwalls would sound even better (even in the size room you have)--and sometimes these are available for less than $1k USD a pair--used.  A used pair of Forte I, II, or III, or Chorus I or II would also do very well--if you can find a good used pair for a reasonable price under $1K.

 

The issue with Heresies is not so much the sound quality but the problem of putting them on the floor leaning backward (as Paul Klipsch recommended).  The short height of the Heresy is problematic for many people trying to integrate them into the room without putting them on stands that deprive the woofers of room boundary loading (i.e., close proximity to the walls and/or room corners).

 

The issue with RP-8000Fs is the crossover frequency (i.e., 1750 Hz), which means the woofers are direct-radiating from the low frequency cutoff (32 Hz) to 1750 Hz.  This is the issue with the RP-8000F and all the other "tower home theater" two-way loudspeakers from Klipsch (with the exception of the Palladium series).  The horn-loaded midranges of the Heresy, Cornwall, Forte and Chorus is the difference in sound quality--i.e., having controlled directivity down to 400-700 Hz is a much better proposition from a room placement perspective.  You get to place the loudspeaker closer to the walls is pick up room gain when using horn-loaded midrange loudspeaker models. 

 

JMTC.

 

Chris

 

Thanks, a lot of good points I hadn't considered.   I was always under the impression that I needed to start with the power/current being the equal or above the rating of the speakers; then I assumed almost any speaker connected would play at it's best.  I have an older Marantz SR5008 receiver, that is not in use but sounded completely adequate, I had thought about using that instead.  Perhaps I should concentrate on the speakers, I will certainly keep an eye out for used ones once I move ahead.  

 

I wasn't aware of the crossover issue with the 8000f for two channel setups.  I felt my big concern was the bass loading of floorstanding speakers in that room with those 8" drivers.  

 

I have a large window at the end of the room (11ft wall) and a built in shelving/cabinetry at the other, if I went with the Heresy, they would fit perfectly in the corners on either side of the window without obstructing in front.  Again, we'll see what the used market offers up as well.

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8 hours ago, Hifi72 said:

Hi, I am new to the forum, and I have a few questions regarding Klipsch speakers and best matching for my room size.  I am hoping to get some advice from members on which direction I should go.  I am in the midst of building a new home, and I have a room where the hifi gear will "live" that is roughly 14ft x 11ft x 9ft.  I am considering replacing my current amp and speaker setup (Simaudio Moon 250i, Focal Aria 926) with a Yamaha as1200 and a Klipsch speaker like the 8000f.  My music tastes are primarily classic rock, and at times some country from the same era (60's-90's), and I find my current system is lacking a bit when it comes to those two genres.  I am looking for a little more excitement and rhythm in my system without going overboard and end up with bass problems for the size of my room.

 

If any one has some advice on what would be a more optimal setup I would appreciate it.  My budget is likely maxed at the combined cost of the Yamaha and 8000f.  Would I be better off with a less expensive amp and Heresy's?  I may have a chance to demo both soon, but obviously not inside my particular room dimensions.  I don't mind spending less if that's what works. ha

 

Thanks!

What? What? I can't hear you. You'll have to speak louder.

 

I have a room close to that size. I started just like you. Shortly thereafter,  I went overboard. I recall a time when accounted for just the weight of the speakers alone in that space. It came out to around 950 pounds. All active. My equipment rack weighs at least another 400 pounds. The entire room is pretty damped with room treatments though. You will have very significant room gain. Why not use the Moon you own? I recommend against Yamaha/Klipsch combos. Yes, this includes the premium lines. Especially when using AVR or integrated. Others will have their own opinions. Maybe they live in a glass house? If you are planning on upgrading later, you are better off going uses/refurbished for now, paying attention to items with good resale value. Later when you want to play for keeps, make sure you can demo in your own room with option of free returns.  Focus on quality with your amp and gear, power is a very distant second with your speaker selections. Many members here have very simple setups that took many stages to get to. Be sure to use their knowledge. Read the threads. Save some budget for room treatments. Your room accounts for a large share of what information your brain/ear actually receives. 

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I think you can save some money and get a speaker that will take up less room without a loss in performance, by choosing the RP-6000F instead. I think a slightly smaller package will be more appropriate for your room size, including the RP-5000F.

 

Money is an issue, and room size is definitely a consideration.

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5 minutes ago, 314carpenter said:

What? What? I can't hear you. You'll have to speak louder.

 

I have a room close to that size. I started just like you. Shortly thereafter,  I went overboard. I recall a time when accounted for just the weight of the speakers alone in that space. It came out to around 950 pounds. All active. My equipment rack weighs at least another 400 pounds. The entire room is pretty damped with room treatments though. You will have very significant room gain. Why not use the Moon you own? I recommend against Yamaha/Klipsch combos. Especially when using AVR or integrated. If you are planning on upgrading later, you are better off going uses/refurbished for now, paying attention to items with good resale value. Later when you want to play for keeps, make sure you can demo in your own room with option of free returns. Others will have their own opinions.  quality amp your budget will allow, power is a very distant second with your speaker selections. Save some budget for room treatments. Your room accounts for a large share of what information your brain/ear actually receives. 

Haha, as long as the frequency isn't over 16khz, or I'll not hear you either.

 

That's a lot of weight!  I've begun looking at Klipsch as I've read reviews they are great rock n roll speakers, and I like the look of the Yamaha, but I haven't heard Yamaha and Klipsch together.  I'll demo what I can to see, but will take into account the fair warning.  I completely agree with trying out in your own room, as I am in the situation I am in, due to not doing that. Top quality components but in my room it didn't work out, and I've spent a few years trying to make it better, subs etc.  My first reaction is to either buy an amplifier that is more powerful, in the hopes it will make the sound "full" thereby engaging woofers more, and dispensing with a sub.  The large open concept room/house in current home is a null fest at the listening position so I'm hoping moving to the smaller one will negate a lot of at least those lack of bass issues, with using, as you said, proper treatment.   Not an option in a shared family room that they exist in now. 

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53 minutes ago, Peter P. said:

I think you can save some money and get a speaker that will take up less room without a loss in performance, by choosing the RP-6000F instead. I think a slightly smaller package will be more appropriate for your room size, including the RP-5000F.

 

Money is an issue, and room size is definitely a consideration.

 

Thanks, I was wondering if I would get some opinions on the sheer size of the 8000f in a @1300 cubic ft room.  I thought maybe go large this time, (power and speaker) but if it's not going to sound as good as smaller cheaper options (RP-6000F), in a particular room, it would be just wasting money.  I've also considered the bookshelf options like the RP-600M, with Eq'd subs, but that opens another complication trying to blend them properly if there isn't (as the case with most integrated's) bass management options.

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9 hours ago, Hifi72 said:

 I've also considered the bookshelf options like the RP-600M, with Eq'd subs, but that opens another complication trying to blend them properly if there isn't (as the case with most integrated's) bass management options.

Blending subs to a pair of bookshelf speakers would be easy IF you have an amp/receiver with flexible integration settings, mostly high and low pass filtering for the sub and satellites separately. If you're just playing music, it's hard to find a 2 channel power source with such capabilities, or it's expensive, or you have to use a home theater receiver just for music to get the tuning options..

 

There's definitely a physical matching of speaker to room not just for acoustic issues but aesthetically a speaker may visually dominate a room, or take up so much space as to be an imposition when moving about in a room. Those deep towers do tend to stick out into the room some.

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2 hours ago, Peter P. said:

Blending subs to a pair of bookshelf speakers would be easy IF you have an amp/receiver with flexible integration settings, mostly high and low pass filtering for the sub and satellites separately. If you're just playing music, it's hard to find a 2 channel power source with such capabilities, or it's expensive, or you have to use a home theater receiver just for music to get the tuning options..

 

There's definitely a physical matching of speaker to room not just for acoustic issues but aesthetically a speaker may visually dominate a room, or take up so much space as to be an imposition when moving about in a room. Those deep towers do tend to stick out into the room some.

 

That seems to be the rub regarding active crossovers in integrated amps.  Way out of price range for me personally for the ones I've seen.  I did consider, at one point, using my sr5008 Marantz receiver as an amp with the Moon to achieve that, but with two volume controls, I'm not sure if that would be wise.  Or really which stage (preamp vs amp) to connect it properly for it to work. 

 

I hadn't thought of the visual aspect of large towers, but it will be on the main floor in its own room.  My wife has had a similar conversation with me prior, it should look like a normal room, not a dorm.  Point taken.  Space wise, the doors are interior double doors in the middle of the long wall, so it needs to clear those for sure.

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17 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

That space would be perfect for a pair of Fortes, and you can find the IIIs at pretty good prices now that the IVs are out. And you probably wouldn't need a sub at all.

 

I would go for Heritage instead of RP all day long.

 

Shakey

 

 

 

Those are really nice speakers, if I can find them used that would be a consideration.  At retail, they are way out of budget unfortunately.  It was my hope to find a speaker that would not require a subwoofer to simplify my setup, as why I began to look at larger efficient speakers, within a certain price range (@$3k or under,) like the RP-8000F that would pair well for the music I listen to mostly.  

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It's  the 8000 almost ideal or larger for the room. 

You should have whatever you want if the room is yours.

Would want a 2 channel stereo system that has bass where no sub is wanted or needed. The 8000 is also used for Home Theatre primarily. A Forte 3 is more stereo centric but also used for HT.

Since rock that I have heard likes to go from low to mostly louder, a Forte 3 is loud enough for that room or larger without sub. Only compromise I would make is no sub to rattle others.

And, as far as room treatments are concerned, making the room as soundproof as possible during construction.

As far as looks, it should look like what it is, a music room

Welcome to the forum!

 

 

Edited by billybob
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3 hours ago, billybob said:

 

And, as far as room treatments are concerned, making the room as soundproof as possible during construction. 

 

 

+1

Forgot this is new construction. Blow the entire budget on the construction of the room. Seroiusly. Now is the time, not later. Plan to leave the room completely barren empty until you have a budget again later. Just get the controlled lighting, ductwork, ventilation, wiring, 20 amp circuits, soundproofing, etc. 

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I have never heard a modern Klipsch tower. I bought a pair of R-51PM's as computer speakers, added a small powered subwoofer, and my wife stole them for the TV room! Bought some used Heresy's (not for the computer, for my man cave). Love them but almost immediately wondered of I should have bought Cornwalls. So if you are 70% leaning towards Heresy speakers ask yourself, "Can I fit Cornwalls into my room?" I love the Heresy's (and I added a sub to them, love them even more) but the Cornwalls call me. 

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20 hours ago, Hifi72 said:

 I've also considered the bookshelf options like the RP-600M, with Eq'd subs,

 

but that opens another complication trying to blend them properly if there isn't (as the case with most integrated's) bass management options.

 

You've gotten a lot of expert opinions ^^^!  @Chris A was right on IMO on used Klipsch and pricing.  Klipsch is an excellent brand to buy used as much is known about them, strengths and flaws alike.  There's nothing I can say which would improve on his suggestions.

 

I'm popping in because I own the 600M.  I run them in a computer 2.1 setup with an inexpensive ten inch Paradigm sub, 100 wpc mini-amp.  Converted small bedroom.  I've owned Khorns, La Scala and CF-4's (dual 12" woofs) and I'm telling your the 600M w/sub has a phenomenal sound.  Plenty of chest thump at moderate SPL.  The sound is very balanced top to bottom.  It will bring a smile to your face every time you listen.

 

Larger speakers will give you larger sound and play better at high SPL and very low SPL but for everything in the middle the 600M is a strong performer.

+++

 

We have a Klipsch dealer who posts here Cory @Paducah Home Theater and Steven @Scrappydue.  They will give you very honest answers to your questions.  They have excellent service, pricing and fast shipping.  I bought my 600M from Cory.  When you're ready to make a purchase decision for new gear, consider contacting Cory or Steven and see what they can do for you.  -Dave

+++

 

The RP-600M w/sub has a similar characteristic sound to my RF-83's, both shown below.

 

723126217_RP-600Mbi-amprightsideview.thumb.JPG.a7ae410117694c96ee0a4dbed5c93e32.JPG

 

 

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On 4/21/2021 at 6:08 PM, wvu80 said:

  

 

You've gotten a lot of expert opinions ^^^!  @Chris A was right on IMO on used Klipsch and pricing.  Klipsch is an excellent brand to buy used as much is known about them, strengths and flaws alike.  There's nothing I can say which would improve on his suggestions.

 

I'm popping in because I own the 600M.  I run them in a computer 2.1 setup with an inexpensive ten inch Paradigm sub, 100 wpc mini-amp.  Converted small bedroom.  I've owned Khorns, La Scala and CF-4's (dual 12" woofs) and I'm telling your the 600M w/sub has a phenomenal sound.  Plenty of chest thump at moderate SPL.  The sound is very balanced top to bottom.  It will bring a smile to your face every time you listen.

 

Larger speakers will give you larger sound and play better at high SPL and very low SPL but for everything in the middle the 600M is a strong performer.

+++

 

We have a Klipsch dealer who posts here Cory @Paducah Home Theater and Steven @Scrappydue.  They will give you very honest answers to your questions.  They have excellent service, pricing and fast shipping.  I bought my 600M from Cory.  When you're ready to make a purchase decision for new gear, consider contacting Cory or Steven and see what they can do for you.  -Dave

+++

 

The RP-600M w/sub has a similar characteristic sound to my RF-83's, both shown below.

 

723126217_RP-600Mbi-amprightsideview.thumb.JPG.a7ae410117694c96ee0a4dbed5c93e32.JPG

 

 

Yes, there have been varied options and solutions put forward by very knowlegable people. It's nice that there are several directions to go, depending on budget etc.

 

I'll seriously look at your solution as well, as I like the price point plus I also have a Paradigm subwoofer, mine is the Monitor Sub 10( with ARC eq), so I am part of the way there already. The 600M + sub being a decent option after owning those higher end speakers gives me hope that I'll be able to create something enjoyable that won't break the bank once the house is complete.  Moderate SPL is about as much as I go, 85db or so for short runs, but mostly medium levels to low as our children will be going to sleep a lot of times when I get a chance to sit down and relax a bit.  I am soundproofing the ceiling in the build, and I'll do my best to keep the audio inside the room via seals around doors etc.

 

 

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On 4/21/2021 at 2:47 PM, 314carpenter said:

+1

Forgot this is new construction. Blow the entire budget on the construction of the room. Seroiusly. Now is the time, not later. Plan to leave the room completely barren empty until you have a budget again later. Just get the controlled lighting, ductwork, ventilation, wiring, 20 amp circuits, soundproofing, etc. 

Some of this has already been completed, but I am doing some soundproofing in the ceiling and sealing as much as I can around the opening/doorway.  20 amp circuit as well.  I have forced air ventilation, via heat pump, so I'll only have the sound when the blower fan in basement engages.  Hopefully low db for airflow.  Interested in the controlled lighting, what it would look like, just trying to understand what you mean by that.  Smart lighting?

 

Once in the house, I'll get some acoustic panels (diy or retail) for early reflection points.  Likely bass traps of some kind in front corners, drapes on window, area rug on floor. Bookcase "built-in" in the rear of room will do for dispersion I think.

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