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Klipschhorn vs. Jubilee Video.


Shiva

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6 minutes ago, Paducah Home Theater said:

 

dudes on youtube: we want speaker comparisons.
 
us: ok, we'll do a review and tell you all about it
 
dudes: no not like that. we want to know what you're playing.
 
us: ok, we'll give you a big list of everything we're playing so you can try for yourself.
 
dudes: no not like that. we want to know when you're playing which speaker.
 
us: ok, we'll give you a list of what's playing when.
 
dudes: no not like that. We want to actually hear them.
 
us: wellllll.... you're largely hearing what the room sounds like, on a cheap cell phone speaker, and we're not big fans of enabling that because it's somewhat intellectually dishonest and may inadvertently sway your decision to something that isn't fully truthful. But ok we'll play some of the music so it's not awkward.
 
dudes: no not like that. we want to hear the differences and know exactly what speaker is playing when you switch them.
 
us: ok but there are licensing issues with big bands, so we're going to get some super cool local Indianapolis bands to give us a licensing agreement, then we will fully play this music and document exactly what speaker is playing and you can see what band is playing and maybe you might find something new and the bands will get some much need exposure and we don't get sued or have our channel dropped and everybody is happy, cool?
 
dudes: no not like that.

Too freaking funny 😂 

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I am sure that you knew ahead of time that a "demo" of a couple of systems on youtube was going to be problematic at best. The notion of any sort of "demo" on youtube actually leading to a sale is far-fetched. Would you buy a car that way?.

 

So, it sounds like this caused you a load of grief. Why did you bother to do it to begin with? You had to have seen it coming.

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7 hours ago, Paducah Home Theater said:

...and I thought the Jubilees sounded a little thin that day as they were not corner loaded or boosted.

This is a problem.  Jubilees are corner horns--and not really "quarter space horns".  (This would affect midbass and deep bass SPL response.) 

 

Did you take a measurement of each loudspeaker (using something like REW or other shareware and a $100 microphone) to see the effects of each placement to verify what you were getting?  You have revealed what kind of microphones were used (...unfortunately...).  The Blumlein Pair is about the only way that you're going to hear anything even distantly resembling what occurred in-room.  Otherwise, a video is not useful, but a merely a distraction.  The lossy format of YouTube videos (AAC) immediately takes away the possibility of hearing any differences in upstream electronics--or even the real recording quality.  You're already down to a small subset of things to convey vs. an in-person audition.  You have to work hard to minimize the damage of just what YouTube is doing to the audio.

 

I think that these two pieces of information (i.e., in-room measurement results, location and type of video microphones) should be a requirement for all videos of loudspeakers so that the people watching them can understand a little about the effect of room placement and recording microphone dependencies on the demonstration.  (But I find most sales-related offerings don't do that...unfortunately for potential customers.)

 

7 hours ago, Paducah Home Theater said:

What I need to do is quit trying to appease people who are trying to audition nearly 4' wide 250 pound speakers on a YouTube video on their computer or phone. 

Hence, my first post in this thread.  Out of respect for Roy's original wishes, I think most Jubilee owners have abstained from attempting this sort of thing and especially because of this outcome that you now lament.  (Apparently...you didn't get that memo.)  So the best outcome here is the realization by potential buyers that "gee, I really do need to listen to these in person, and in well-set-up condition".  

 

Sorry to appear to join the other voices on this subject, but getting to a fair comparison condition for a YouTube video (if, in fact, that can actually be done--which I have never believed was actually possible), the bar is high for loudspeakers that have these performance levels, but which require proper placement in-room.  A poor demo is a good way to influence the outcome any way you wish, but the work done by the engineer(s) of each loudspeaker is not really given a fair treatment.

 

Chris

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Youtube is low bit rate

Does it cut off highs and lows ?

 

Recording speakers in anything other than a chamber

is challenging to futile

 

Out on the back porch would take the room out of the equation.

 

If I recall correctly, the K-horn was delivered for mono, and just one speaker.

 

The Jubes are about 3-4 generations newer in design and tech.

Test, measurement, design tools and materials all improved over 50 years.

Original geometries were done on slide rulers

and CNC had not been thought of, let alone deployed.

 

3 major design trade offs in the K-horns to achieve the design goals were

- Phasing the low and mids and tweeter

- the need for corner placement to achieve the lows and directivity.

- 3 way speaker means 2 transitions in the crossover where lots of things can go wrong.

 

Jubes

- Phasing fixed with DSP for alignment

- No corners required, better directivity

- 2 way design is one less chance for something to go wrong

- slightly shorter for better alignment while sitting

 

Crossover

Are both 400hz for the low to mid ?

 

Audio test material

As corny as it may sound ...

Something like Julie Andrews singing and speaking on the tracks

from the Sound of music might be a better test

Andrews speaking with Christopher Plumber would also be a good test

Richard Burton is also phenomenal in voice recordings

George Winston December is a masterpiece in recording quality and performance

and will flog a system to it's limits.

An A list keyboard musician who listened to Dec on my system, purchased every format

as soon as he returned home, and he does not like Winston (competitive).

I understand there are licensing issues I don't have to deal with...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjWWs81QAYY

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On 5/11/2021 at 1:54 PM, Fido said:

After over 38,0000 posts to an Internet forum can one actually make “yet another” well thought out post?  🤣

I'll give it a try after my 8,000 Plus Posts..............................two 12's beats a single 15" every time!! ..........................also another simple pearl of wisdom: "Different is not the same."

 

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For me it's fairly simple. If someone is going to record video to share to an audience of some kind,  might as well use a decent video device rather than a crappy one, to go for a clear image.    As well, if you are going to record audio gear playing music,  might as well have a good microphone too.   It doesn't have to be a binaural head, but could be of quality.  Then there is no reason for a conversation,  audio and video are both addressed in the proper way.   For those who don't think music can be recorded well on youtube, I'll offer this vid up for perusal.

 

  

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3 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

The notion of any sort of "demo" on youtube actually leading to a sale is far-fetched. Would you buy a car that way?.

 

Absolutely.  I've sold a ton of speakers based on the youtube videos in general and yes plenty of people including myself use YouTube to go car shopping.  Actually YouTube is golden for more expensive vehicles with unique and complicated features such as my Raptor.  The idea that I'd buy a $70,000 truck based on a few cheap sales pitch lines from the local sales idiot (who may have never even seen one before) rather than scour YouTube for more in-depth demos and reviews is far-fetched.  

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22 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Then there is no reason for a conversation,  audio and video are both addressed in the proper way.   

 

Yeah no.  Best case scenario you're stripping it down to basic frequency response, while adding some room coloration and other shenanigans from the gear you're listening with.  Just buy some headphones and be done with it.  

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11 hours ago, jdmccall said:

I wonder what it actually costs to build a pair of Jubilees in material and labor.  I would guess less than 5K.  Maybe considerably less.

 

Speakers are not a commodity product.  They don't sell for something like "cost + 15%" or something like that.  A lot of research and development went into these speakers.  You could truthfully say that it took PWK over 45 years to acquire the knowledge and experience (with the very important help of Roy Delgado) to create the Jubilees.  That adds up to a lot, even if it's difficult to put an exact number to it.

 

Like most of us, you're probably accustomed to products like cars and TVs, which sell in the millions every year.  Sales numbers like that make it possible to share the cost of R&D among thousands or millions of units, so it becomes a small fraction of the selling price, while still leaving room for bargaining.  While many people have some kind of speakers in their homes, speakers like the Jubilees sell in the hundreds at most, meaning that the cost of R&D makes up more of the total cost of each speaker.  Due to the size and price of horn-loaded speakers, they will never sell in the millions, even worldwide, partly because most countries outside of North America have homes with smaller rooms than the roomy ones we're used to.

 

Speakers like Klipschorns and Jubilees are luxury products.  Nobody needs them, which is why it would be extremely unlikely to hear the government try to persuade Klipsch to lower the prices of their Heritage Series speakers, so that more Americans can hear the sound quality that everyone deserves, especially during a pandemic that has put a stop to the live music experience.  Luxury products cost what they cost.  It's not like PWK lived in a huge mansion, with many servants, with nothing more for him to do than check his bank statements when he felt like it.  No, he was going to the factory when he was in his nineties, still trying to figure out how to make better speakers, with a more life-like sound.

 

Selling speakers didn't enrich Paul Klipsch.  Instead, his speaker creations enriched, and continue to enrich, the lives of tens of thousands of music fans, including me.

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34 minutes ago, Paducah Home Theater said:

I've sold a ton of speakers based on the youtube videos

Ha! In between the old days of auditioning speakers in person, to selling speakers based on Youtube, I've probably helped sell dozens of speakers based on folks coming to the internet to get advice. 🤠

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2 hours ago, Shiva said:

For me it's fairly simple. If someone is going to record video to share to an audience of some kind,  might as well use a decent video device rather than a crappy one, to go for a clear image.    As well, if you are going to record audio gear playing music,  might as well have a good microphone too.   It doesn't have to be a binaural head, but could be of quality.  Then there is no reason for a conversation,  audio and video are both addressed in the proper way.   For those who don't think music can be recorded well on youtube, I'll offer this vid up for perusal.

 

  

 

Thank you for sharing. Yes, the video sounds great. The man in the video is good concerning audio. Many say YouTube videos don’t have the ability to sound good, but I’ve heard many that do. I listen with good headphones and it’s almost like I’m there. I enjoy the room acoustics too. I know what a good audio system sounds like and a quality system when I hear one.

 

I like the music in the video you shared too. I’m buying the CD of it. I discover and buy a lot of good music by watching YouTube videos of those who play music on their quality audio systems.

 

Another good audio speaker YouTube series is Kenrick Sound.  They post regular videos of speakers and you really get a good sense of how they sound.

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14 hours ago, jdmccall said:

I wonder what it actually costs to build a pair of Jubilees in material and labor.  I would guess less than 5K.  Maybe considerably less.

way less than 5k$  ------but  you need a set of plans , and thus far ,  I dont think that a clone copy of a Jubilee has been faithful to the Original -they may look the same , but that's about it -

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4 hours ago, Paducah Home Theater said:

 

Absolutely.  I've sold a ton of speakers based on the youtube videos in general and yes plenty of people including myself use YouTube to go car shopping.  Actually YouTube is golden for more expensive vehicles with unique and complicated features such as my Raptor.  The idea that I'd buy a $70,000 truck based on a few cheap sales pitch lines from the local sales idiot (who may have never even seen one before) rather than scour YouTube for more in-depth demos and reviews is far-fetched.  

I'm glad it has worked for you.

 

I still don't comprehend how a youtube video would help someone appreciate the differences between speaker systems costing thousands of dollars. In my world, especially if I was going to buy them,  I would need to hear them in person .... not via youtube

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1 hour ago, RandyH000 said:

way less than 5k$  ------but  you need a set of plans , and thus far ,  I dont think that a clone copy of a Jubilee has been faithful to the Original -they may look the same , but that's about it -

I think you are off target on this one. In fact, I really can't figure out where your comments are coming from.

 

Granted, there are copies out there that are not very good. There are also copies that are pretty good and some that are remarkably good. The cost for parts alone would be shy of $3k, if you can get them. If you start making substitutions, then the result may become severely compromised. 

 

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1 hour ago, RandyH000 said:

way less than 5k$  ------but  you need a set of plans , and thus far ,  I dont think that a clone copy of a Jubilee has been faithful to the Original -they may look the same , but that's about it -

 

One Forum member built a pair of clones several years ago.  While they sounded very good, when he wanted a second pair of Jubilees, he bought a pair from Klipsch.  The build turned out to be more work than he had imagined, and he didn't want to do it again.

 

Keep in mind that Jubilees, unlike first-gen La Scalas, for example, are a current production model.

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47 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

I'm glad it has worked for you.

 

I still don't comprehend how a youtube video would help someone appreciate the differences between speaker systems costing thousands of dollars. In my world, especially if I was going to buy them,  I would need to hear them in person .... not via youtube


I don't think people realize how many people are out there who don't have access to a local dealer who can demo nicer stuff.  
 

The only time the listening comparisons really works well for this in my opinion is if you have similar speakers in the same place on the same equipment and you're pointing out slight details.  Dean mentioned the RF-7's earlier... that halfway worked because they were almost identical and were mostly just listening for this pretty specific and annoying 1.7-1.8 khz or so section, whether it's there or got better or whatever.  Dean did this resistor mod crossover thing that cut this frequency range on the original RF-7's somewhat and they were wondering if the new ones helped in this regard.  It can work great for such things but that's about it in my opinion.  

I've done really well with Cornwalls in particular on YouTube.  However, most people really want to hear the stories, technical explanations, different angles and lighting than the stock pictures, etc.  The recorded audio demos in themselves isn't what's driving sales, that's just where the vocal minority comes out of the woodwork to whine about it.  

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I didn't mention the RF-7s, I mentioned Michael and his YouTube videos. He reviews tons of stuff.

 

With large speakers, doing a good comparison video would be exhausting. The speakers have to occupy the same space, and microphone placement would have to be the same too.

 

You could still do the videos, but focus on specifications, the aesthetic, and your impressions. Avoid the listening thing and explain why like you did here with your posts.

 

Nice store!

 

 

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Just now, RandyH000 said:

do you remember the Forum user name -

 

Rigma...

 

He and his wife are both on here. When he posted info about his build process, the Chief commented, asking if he had seen him hanging around the Klipsch wood shop.

 

They were exceptional, still are. I believe he's bought two pair from Klipsch since he built them. He has a 1502 sub as well. I don't know for sure but it was probably more a proof of concept for him. He was certainly impressed enough to buy the real things.

 

 

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