Faital driver upgrades

[seasterl]

My first Klipsch speakers were Heresy 3 and I placed them on stands and added a subwoofer and used a tube amp and preamp. It was a nice setup, but I found the sound a bit grainy and sold the speakers. Later I bought some pre-built “cornscala” two-way speakers that used an Eminence 15” woofer and Faital compression driver.  I found the Faital smoothness extremely good, but I sold these speakers due to a disconnect (lack of coherence) between the two drivers.  In other words, on paper the speakers were great, but the execution lacked credibility.  This was my experience about 7-10 years ago. Now Klipsch has the Heresy 4, Cornscala 4, and I guess a Forte that looks nice.  Has anyone here experienced the dramatic smoothness of the Faital driver and can relate that to Klipsch’s current offerings and “if” there is a viable Crites upgrade path with the Faital driver for one of the current speakers since they are bigger now and can accommodate the larger Faital driver.  
 

Thanks for your comments.  I just can’t get the horn sound out of my mind since I love the dynamics and realism and synergy with EL34 tubes. 

[OO1]

Welcome back   @seasterl

 

a lot of things have changed  -

 

Klipch has entirely new drivers , new horns , new crossovers ,new ports ,   and tons of technology that is so well balanced  that there is absolutely no need for Aftermarket drivers  or upgrades from 1/3rd parties ...............and klipsch has new OEM capacitors to revamp old crossovers with no need to modify  the entire speaker with parts that do alter the klipsch signature sound  ---

 

 

 

 

[Deang]

9 hours ago, RandyH000 said:

that do alter the klipsch signature sound  ---

You do realize that this is the mods section, and that's the whole point of a modification, right? 

 

There are two kinds of people 1) My speakers are old and need to be brought back to spec, what should I do? 2) I like my speakers for the most part, but wish they ________, what can I do? 

 

I agree that it doesn't make sense to buy a pair of $6000 loudspeakers just so you can gut them.

 

@seasterl That driver won't fit on the horn Klipsch is using, and won't work with the network. If you want to use that driver, then buy another set of speakers from Crites. If you want better integration, you are going to need more than a cap and a coil.

 

 

[ClaudeJ1]

10 hours ago, RandyH000 said:

Welcome back   @seasterl

 

a lot of things have changed  -

 

Klipch has entirely new drivers , new horns , new crossovers ,new ports ,   and tons of technology that is so well balanced  that there is absolutely no need for Aftermarket drivers  or upgrades from 1/3rd parties ...............and i, klipsch has new OEM capacitors to revamp old crossovers with no need to modify  the entire speaker with parts that do alter the klipsch signature sound  ---

 

 

 

 

I agree with this opinion. The "upgrade" has already been done for you. Just buy the IV's and avoid all the issues and hassles. In other words, Roy Delgado ROCKS!

 

[OO1]

Just now, ClaudeJ1 said:

I agree with this opinion. The "upgrade" has already been done for you. Just buy the IV's!

-----I agree with you Claude  The OP SAID he sold a pair of Cornscalas cause he wasn't happy  -----does he need another Cornscala , no , he needs a good speakwe -----a Cornwall IV will definitely not disappoint

[OO1]

1 hour ago, Deang said:

 

 

@seasterl That driver won't fit on the horn Klipsch is using, and won't work with the network. If you want to use that driver, then buy another set of speakers from Crites. If you want better integration, you are going to need more than a cap and a coil.

 

 

not a bad idea either SO OPTION B  ---you can help him with Designing a Custom speaker with the best parts available -  why not ?

[Deang]

Ha! Won’t be me. Once they go with drivers I don’t know much about - I’m out.  

[PrestonTom]

Well, a few things are being ignored in this discussion. 

 

First, "good design" will frequently result in a better system than "good parts". 

Second, the price is important. Let me say that again, the price is important. Well chosen upgraded parts (according to the system design) will cost far less than the price of $6000 for the new Cornwall IV's. Will it sound better? If it is good design, it just might.

 

Personally, if you are going to spend that amount of money, you are only a few grand away for something that is truly a step up. Of course, that would be the Klipsch Jubilees. Wait, I just forgot about my second point that price is important. My bad .....

 

-Tom

[OO1]

2 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

 

Let me say that again, the price is important. Well chosen / will cost far less than the price of $6000 for the new Cornwall IV's. 

a step up. ..........the Klipsch Jubilees. .

so are you saying the OP has to spend 20k$  to beat a CWIV that costs 6000$ ,  that's one way of saying a CWIV is a Fantastic Speaker

[PrestonTom]

2 hours ago, RandyH000 said:

so are you saying the OP has to spend 20k$  to beat a CWIV that costs 6000$ ,  that's one way of saying a CWIV is a Fantastic Speaker

 

This figure of $20,000 for a pair of Klipsch Jubilees is inaccurate. In fact, it is not even close.

I think those of you who keep repeating it should do some homework first. You are unwittingly scaring off potential buyers of a fantastic product. 

 

I am trying to say this in a friendly way, but I have become tired of this (unintended)  misinformation that keeps being repeated.

 

If folks want to buy Klipsch Jubilees, they are within reach. 

 

-Tom

[OO1]

8 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

 

If folks want to buy Klipsch Jubilees, they are within reach.

these were 15k$ with a Xilica , now 20k$ ---https://www.ebay.com/itm/293507666389?hash=item44566b91d5:g:hhYAAOSw0NZeaWvz

[seasterl]

Thanks for the comments!  First, I should correct a typo in my original post.  I meant to acknowledge that Klipsch has the Cornwall IV out now (but I said Cornscala 4).  Sorry, but I think you got my drift.  But on to the Cornscala, yes, I did have a set as mentioned, and rather than continue to tinker with them further (having already tried all the taps on the autotransformer to tame the Faital HF140 8-ohm driver), I decided to sell them and learn from the failure and come back to the table later.  Well, I "think" that now is the later.  What I did not like about that particular Cornscala is that it used a heavier version of  the Eminence woofer (the Kappa 15C) than what Crites was using in his (I think), and the Faital was the 8-ohm version rather than the 16-ohm version.  (These were prebuilt before I understood this differences.)  So the horn was hot and the woofer was great on bass but had a clear disconnect when trying to integrate male voices.  Otherwise, the Faital was really, really smooth and nice and much better than the mids / highs on my Heresy 3.  So what I took from my experience is that I really loved the Faital driver and big oval horn, but I wish there was a similar driver that could go low enough to reproduce the male voices.  Cutting off at 500-600Hz is just a really bad place to go from compression driver to woofer IF the woofer is not extremely well integrated.  That's when I thought using Dynaudio mid-woofer for male vocals, Faital for 600Hz and up, and then I already have a Bag End 18" sealed with Camco pro amp and room correction.  I figured I would do well to get a decent crossover and THEN I could blend all these drivers without worrying about taps on an autotransformer and passive crossovers.  Besides, raw materials for the speaker are significantly less than the retail price of new Cornwall 4.  I don't mind the 100-pound massive Cornwall speaker (or Cornscala for a project box), but the price is a bit crazy.  So, after thinking about this I'm thinking I have a couple of options and this is where I'd like you folks to weigh in.  

 

Option 1:  Cornwall 4,... In order to vote for this option, I'd request that you have heard the Faital drivers and know how smooth they are and that the Cornwall 4 current midrange driver is at least as good or better.  I'm hoping no one suggests H4, CW4, etc. without the experience of hearing the Faital, too.  If you have heard them all and know where I'm coming from, then I'll give serious consideration to CW4.  

 

Option 2:  A Crites 1.5 enclosure (or suitable size) cut for the big oval horn coupled to the Faital driver, and then a Dynaudio mid-woofer (or Scanspeak, etc.) and then I pick up an electronic crossover and do the amplification AFTER the frequencies are split.  Then I can blend the drivers without taking the speaker apart.  Ideally, I'd get a compression driver and tuba-sized horn and use for the male vocals and tune the 18" Bag End for a little more finesse.  

 

As a side note, this is for a third system that his heavily damped with no reflections and using an EL34 tube amp (SED Winged-C Russian tubes).

[Travis In Austin]

4 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

 

This figure of $20,000 for a pair of Klipsch Jubilees is inaccurate. In fact, it is not even close.

I think those of you who keep repeating it should do some homework first. You are unwittingly scaring off potential buyers of a fantastic product. 

 

I am trying to say this in a friendly way, but I have become tired of this (unintended)  misinformation that keeps being repeated.

 

If folks want to buy Klipsch Jubilees, they are within reach. 

 

-Tom

Cory has 2 pair left of KPT-KHJ-LF-402 combos "Jubilee" left. They are 20K per pair. Smart move on his part, yet again).

 

That was on his Facebook page today. After that they are all gone he says. No mas, no mas. That could change a year or two or ten down the road after The Jubilee launches in the Summer/Fall and has its initial run someone can talk Roy into doing a run. 

 

Did I miss something on that, there is some other source for KHJ/K402 Jubilee combo?

 

I think it is close to being only the flagship - The Jubilee for the 1 percenters.

 

 

[PrestonTom]

8 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

Cory has 2 pair left of KPT-KHJ-LF-402 combos "Jubilee" left. They are 20K per pair. Smart move on his part, yet again).

 

That was on his Facebook page today. After that they are all gone he says. No mas, no mas. That could change a year or two or ten down the road after The Jubilee launches in the Summer/Fall and has its initial run someone can talk Roy into doing a run. 

 

Did I miss something on that, there is some other source for KHJ/K402 Jubilee combo?

 

I think it is close to being only the flagship - The Jubilee for the 1 percenters.

 

 

I am not the point of contact on this issue. However ........ as of April 2021, Jubilees are available and at a price far less than what is being floated around. 

 

I only bring this up because folks in this thread and others have been discussing fairly expensive ways to improve their systems (fancy electronics etc). My contention is that for this kind of money you are now in the ballpark for buying Jubilees. My opinion is that Jubilees would truly be a significant improvement, especially when compared to fancy electronics etc.

 

The new "new Jubilee" (not yet released)  sounds exciting, but the price (according to rumors) puts it well out of range for me.  

 

I apologize to the OP for side-tracking his thread.

-Tom

[ClaudeJ1]

12 hours ago, seasterl said:

Cornwall 4,... In order to vote for this option, I'd request that you have heard the Faital drivers and know how smooth they are and that the Cornwall 4 current midrange driver is at least as good or better.  I'm hoping no one suggests H4, CW4, etc. without the experience of hearing the Faital, too.  If you have heard them all and know where I'm coming from, then I'll give serious consideration to CW4.  

I own 8 Faital Drivers, woofers, 2" compression drivers with Faital Horns for mid, but I prefer an Eminence 314X. If you want to get a better "attack" between a direct radiator and the inherently "faster" horn, then you need to do a speaker with Dual 12" drivers. Two 12" motors with low Qes is better than one 15". I used the Delta Pro 12a for my Super Heresy to get better midbass/midrange, so using two of those bad boys will get you closer to your goal than a single 15. Otherwise, only horn bass will do, so you can build a LaScala or better yet, a Peavey FH-1 and use a 15 C. The only thing that can truly keep up with a mid horn is a midbass horn, and the only thing that can keep up with a midbass horn is a Subwoofer HORN. Otherwise you are wasting your time and money with the compromises of direct radiators. The BL product of those drivers favors the top end (above 100 Hz.) This is what I'm doing with my latest speaker project, which is not Klipsch, so I will not be posting it here.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 5/11/2021 at 10:22 PM, seasterl said:

 I just can’t get the horn sound out of my mind since I love the dynamics and realism and synergy with EL34 tubes. 

If you want more dynamics on the bass, use a class D amp, which takes better control of the bigger voice coils, and keep the tubes for the top end. Use passive bi amping if you cant do a Mini DSP. You are barking up the wrong tree in so many ways to get what you say you want.

[seasterl]

What compression driver and horn combination will go down to about 100Hz to cover male voices?  If there are not any, then perhaps a really light 15” cone is the only way.  IME with my old Cornscala two-way, I thought the Eminence Kappa 15C was too heavy.  It was great for kick drum and even HT and musical passages, but I felt it lost out when blending male vocals with female vocals.  Perhaps I should have experimented more at that time changing the 15” woofer and the crossover.  But the Faital driver was a very significant upgrade in smoothness over the midrange used in the H3, so I want to avoid another expensive lesson.  The issue I see is that many of these loudspeakers keep their drivers a bit of a secret and hard to determine the manufacturer and model number for some of them.  (The magnets are covered by generic stickers.). The Jubilee was mentioned earlier.  I thought those were commercial speakers (super large and ugly, industrial-looking), but seems they tried to dress it up more to increase the WAF and market to homeowners.  Since the thread quickly changed from CW4 to Jubilee, I gather the group would say that the Jubilee is Klipsch’s smoothest-sounding speaker.  If it is much better than the current CW4, then that would be good to know. If they use the same driver(s), then what is the midrange driver and woofer?

[Bubo]

1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I own 8 Faital Drivers, woofers, 2" compression drivers with Faital Horns for mid, but I prefer an Eminence 314X. If you want to get a better "attack" between a direct radiator and the inherently "faster" horn, then you need to do a speaker with Dual 12" drivers. Two 12" motors with low Qes is better than one 15". I used the Delta Pro 12a for my Super Heresy to get better midbass/midrange, so using two of those bad boys will get you closer to your goal than a single 15. Otherwise, only horn bass will do, so you can build a LaScala or better yet, a Peavey FH-1 and use a 15 C. The only thing that can truly keep up with a mid horn is a midbass horn, and the only thing that can keep up with a midbass horn is a Subwoofer HORN. Otherwise you are wasting your time and money with the compromises of direct radiators. The BL product of those drivers favors the top end (above 100 Hz.) This is what I'm doing with my latest speaker project, which is not Klipsch, so I will not be posting it here.

 

Actually, I see no problem in posting your project here.

 

It's not like promoting a competing brand current production.

 

Classics (speakers regardless of who made them) are well classics, and worthy of admiration. Art is Art.

 

Klipsch can and does change drivers, and mod designs for the next rev,  some of which appear to be taken directly from Klipsch users who mod the products and experiment.

 

The original Heritage designs represented the available affordable design and tech of the day.

 

Dual driver bass horn, with Mid horn extending from 400 up to 17K and rolling off rapidly, is always interesting

 

Few years ago, Ducatti did a limited production retro Ducatti SS circa 1977

If I recall correctly, the entire production sold in hours before the first one was built.

 

This looks like original production stock, 12,000 RPM and 168 mph out of the crate,  higher speed in curves than anything you can imagine. Solid mechanical valves Desmodromic, worm screws connecting valves and crankshaft.

 

[Deang]

My music sounds like shit, so I went back to direct radiators. Problem solved. 🙂

[ClaudeJ1]

17 minutes ago, Deang said:

My music sounds like shit, so I went back to direct radiators. Problem solved. 🙂

Which music is that? I have direct radiator speakers too, but the OP is talking about matching to a horn. I'm finishing up my Yamaha Ns-1000's to use as computer speakers. Those Berylium drivers are the boss!