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Who needs such promises?


KT88

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On 6/12/2021 at 5:04 PM, ODS123 said:

My hunch is that Roy and the design team for the new Khorn know very well that AQ wiring neither measurably, nor audibly improves the speaker.  It DOES however, help them impress the non-scientific audiophile who thinks fancy wire matters.  ..And considering the rather short of amount used in each speaker, it does little to raise the production cost of the speaker.  Who knows what Klipsch pays per ft. for the wire, but I'm sure it's a fraction of what one would spend at an audio dealer.

Audio Advisor in MI used to let you "Buy"  a small pair to try out yourself. Easy returns included.

 

Not a snob, can't afford to be but I did simple testing. With my old rig including the thirty year old Heresy IIs. It brought better timbre throughout and more bass response compared to my old 14 G oxygen free copper Monster Cables. The old cables weren't damaged.

 

It's true that reduced resistivity helps electrons flow easier. AQ Type 4 is equivalent to 15 gauge and it improved upon what my 14 gauge could do.  Try it, you might agree.

 

I don't like limiting myself, sometimes I try stuff twice!

 

Mikey Tried It!

& He liked it!

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5 hours ago, JohnJ said:

It's true that reduced resistivity helps electrons flow easier. AQ Type 4 is equivalent to 15 gauge and it improved upon what my 14 gauge could do.  Try it, you might agree.

 

 

 

This is just more anecdotal evidence that does nothing to reduce expectation bias - I'm sorry but it's wholly unconvincing.  

 

In Pharma this sort of "I tried it and it helped" approach to sort out real from imagined improvement would never pass muster.  As I mentioned in previous threads, in a clinical trial 30% of people who used an inhaler w/ inert ingredients (i.e., the placebo trial arm) believed they felt an improvement in their asthma symptoms.  And this is just one example.  In hundreds and hundreds of clinical studies, participants report an improvement in symptoms when given a placebo.  ..And bear in mind these participants KNEW there was a 50/50 chance they'd be given a placebo.

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That's placebo thing got nothing to do with saying something doesn't do x x without giving it a try. There are a lot of sheeple out there, I'm not one.

 

How that 15 gauge beats a 14 gauge? Maybe there is something to solid vs stranded.

Don't know, but my ears do not lie to me, call audio advisor and get set up with that trial then get back with me, otherwise:

"What you need Klipsch for Willis??" from my "page" four years ago!

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The most intelligent subjects may be exposed to suggestive forces by all sorts of factors in a double-blind medical test. Both the belief in a positive effect or the imagination of negative side effects can become a subjective reality.

But we are at a later stage here. The last posts here describe the later phase in which you could imagine that the sound would be better, or at least different, after you had bought certain little helpers.

This thread (as I originally meant it) is about an earlier stage. I'm concerned with the seductiveness of promises that haven't even happened yet, but which already raise hopes and expectations. This raises the question of how realistically or how euphorically we assess or hope for change. And not by buying a better amplifier or better speakers, but through peripheral miracle cures.

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No @ODS123 I can't fathom the placebo effect myself.

But have you tried the cables that you're knockin' ?

Sorry about the OT stuff, well it's not too far off. Those cables made a difference in this instance, Saw a vid of Roy talking about it somewhere... will have to pull it up on my phone. It's all I have with sound right now since I'm moving out to the Twilight Zone or maybe it's out of the zone?

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4 hours ago, KT88 said:

The most intelligent subjects may be exposed to suggestive forces by all sorts of factors in a double-blind medical test. Both the belief in a positive effect or the imagination of negative side effects can become a subjective reality.

But we are at a later stage here. The last posts here describe the later phase in which you could imagine that the sound would be better, or at least different, after you had bought certain little helpers.

This thread (as I originally meant it) is about an earlier stage. I'm concerned with the seductiveness of promises that haven't even happened yet, but which already raise hopes and expectations. This raises the question of how realistically or how euphorically we assess or hope for change. And not by buying a better amplifier or better speakers, but through peripheral miracle cures.

I'm sorry but I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here.  ..Please restate.  

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6 hours ago, ODS123 said:

I'm sorry but I have absolutely no idea what you're saying here.  ..Please restate.  

Oh sorry, I re-read it myself and it wasn't my most understandable post. Also, I was too pedantic in the post.

Then I'll try to put it this way.
We can look at two different phases. Phase 1 concerns wishes and dreams before! a purchase happens. Questions arise like „What miraculous stories tempt someone to spend a lot of money on magic remedies“, or also „Which conscious and unconscious desire is effective here?“
I meant to say in the last post that this was my focus. But phase 2 below is just as important.


Phase 2. Some change has happened to the hi-fi system. Can you hear it? Does it sound better if you made the change yourself?

So much for clarifying my last post.

 

A new thought:

Of course, it is a very wide and dynamic field on which we move in the hifi category. That's a main reason why this hobby is so exciting and lively.

It is also a very subjective judgment what seems "reasonable" to each individual, and what someone judges as "unreasonable" or even fraud. 
For example, I would consider the miracle drops mentioned at the beginning of the thread to be fraud at their pricing.

I would likewise consider the change from a cheap amp to a great super amp to be "reasonable" and effective. 
But some outsiders who are not interested in the hobby would not accept the additional expense for the super amp in the same way as I can not accept the miracle drops.

This outsider might even think that if I buy the super amp that I might be cheated or that I am cheating myself.

Sometimes such outsiders mean it really well with us hifi enthusiasts. They save us from "big stupidities" in their view and call themselves wife😎

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On 6/19/2021 at 3:56 AM, KT88 said:

They save us from "big stupidities" in their view and call themselves wife😎

Hahaha, i missed this the first time around. So profound.

 

I wonder if the others here know you do market research and have formal training in psychology? This is the very topic you formally study and call your profession. 

 

From a philosophical perspective, I've always wondered at what point does one draw the line between truthful and deceptive marketing? If there is a cognitive bias changing the customer's experience, then isn't that achieving the claims of the marketing? The mechanism may be purely psychological, but it's still successful?

 

There are entire fields that study interior design and architecture and how it emotionally impacts us. All of the greatest listening rooms have these visual design cues that further aid the listening experience... It could be as simple as dimming the lights for an evening listening session, and yet that has no impact on the acoustic waves. However, the emotional state it puts us in sets the context for how the music is heard, and in that sense has a hugely dramatic impact to the music listening experience. Is that snake oil too?

 

Thinking about it some more, isn't the entire audiophile hobby built on the same fundamental principal? The seductive voice we hear singing isn't actually in the room, but we sit in the dark imagining that it is. The entire hobby is established on an experience that isn't physically substantiated. The illusion of music exists only in our minds.

 

Who are we to say one illusion (or cognitive bias) is more acceptable than another?

 

Perhaps the "wife" (symbolic of the one not succumb to the illusion) is "always right", but I think it's more fun to be wrong.... 

 

 

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3 hours ago, DrWho said:

 

There are entire fields that study interior design and architecture and how it emotionally impacts us. All of the greatest listening rooms have these visual design cues that further aid the listening experience... It could be as simple as dimming the lights for an evening listening session, and yet that has no impact on the acoustic waves. However, the emotional state it puts us in sets the context for how the music is heard, and in that sense has a hugely dramatic impact to the music listening experience. Is that snake oil too?

 

Thinking about it some more, isn't the entire audiophile hobby built on the same fundamental principal? The seductive voice we hear singing isn't actually in the room, but we sit in the dark imagining that it is. The entire hobby is established on an experience that isn't physically substantiated. The illusion of music exists only in our minds.

 

Who are we to say one illusion (or cognitive bias) is more acceptable than another?

 

Perhaps the "wife" (symbolic of the one not succumb to the illusion) is "always right", but I think it's more fun to be wrong.... 

3 hours ago, DrWho said:

 

There are entire fields that study interior design and architecture and how it emotionally impacts us. All of the greatest listening rooms have these visual design cues that further aid the listening experience... It could be as simple as dimming the lights for an evening listening session, and yet that has no impact on the acoustic waves. However, the emotional state it puts us in sets the context for how the music is heard, and in that sense has a hugely dramatic impact to the music listening experience. Is that snake oil too?

 

Thinking about it some more, isn't the entire audiophile hobby built on the same fundamental principal? The seductive voice we hear singing isn't actually in the room, but we sit in the dark imagining that it is. The entire hobby is established on an experience that isn't physically substantiated. The illusion of music exists only in our minds.

 

Who are we to say one illusion (or cognitive bias) is more acceptable than another?

 

Perhaps the "wife" (symbolic of the one not succumb to the illusion) is "always right", but I think it's more fun to be wrong.... 

 

 

 

 

There are entire fields that study interior design and architecture and how it emotionally impacts us. True. Not only that, but also how architecture influences, or literally controls our behavior. I took many of these kinds of courses at Uof I while studying architecture and my personal library is littered with many text books from thereof.

 

All of the greatest listening rooms have these visual design cues that further aid the listening experience... It could be as simple as dimming the lights for an evening listening session, and yet that has no impact on the acoustic waves. This is also very true. It’s also why I spent so much time integrating the visual appearance/ambience of my room, to create illusion that has visual impact on the artificial “soundstage”. Even some of the exhibitors at audio shows have discovered this going to at least some extent trying to create a lighting effect on the speakers/front wall that appears to enhance the depth of the sound field.

 

However, the emotional state it puts us in sets the context for how the music is heard, and in that sense has a hugely dramatic impact to the music listening experience. Is that snake oil too? Only if someone is charging us too much (smile)

 

Thinking about it some more, isn't the entire audiophile hobby built on the same fundamental principal? The seductive voice we hear singing isn't actually in the room, but we sit in the dark imagining that it is. The entire hobby is established on an experience that isn't physically substantiated. The illusion of music exists only in our minds. No, the music is really there, the artists performing it are not there. Actually, I prefer listening with open eyes and lights on. If done right, the lighting can actually enhance the illusion of “presence”. Not sure it works for everyone but I can attest that inexperienced totally non-audiophile types have described it at my place as “it’s like I’m there” or “it’s as if I can see all the musicians”. And that, I think is about as good as it can get at the moment.

Hi Mike. Haven't seen you in a while. Everything has changed since you were over. Not done with revisions yet. Hope you're doing well.

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2 hours ago, DrWho said:

Hahaha, i missed this the first time around. So profound.

 

I wonder if the others here know you do market research and have formal training in psychology? This is the very topic you formally study and call your profession. 

I think I mentioned it meanwhile somewhere here. But it is important to me that the forum sees me as a hifi and music enthusiast who contributes here his part to the hobby and benefits a lot from the knowledge of other forum members, and not as a psychologist who probably makes his scientific reflections on the discussions and thoughts here in the forum. That is true and this forum belongs to the wonderful components in life that let me forget my work in a beautiful way.

Of course, my thinking has shaped me over the decades and I can't quite take it off in my spare time like a jacket on a coat rack. And some topics like the snake oil here in the thread touch my way of thinking and reacting (...ok, I just saw again that I was the topic opener, haha).

 

2 hours ago, DrWho said:

 

From a philosophical perspective, I've always wondered at what point does one draw the line between truthful and deceptive marketing? If there is a cognitive bias changing the customer's experience, then isn't that achieving the claims of the marketing? The mechanism may be purely psychological, but it's still successful?

In a way, that's a point of view I share. This is preceded by the idea of freedom in a society so that everyone can enjoy everything he acquires, and a second idea, namely that no one else has to suffer when someone realizes or savors the fulfillment of marketing claims quite subjectively in his personal world even if this personal fulfillment seems crazy or incomprehensible to outsiders, like here in the example of the snake oil, as long as the user can still pay off the debts for his house (because otherwise it would already be a case where his family would have to suffer).

So if everything is ok then we are dealing with a case where both phases that I described last summer in a post above have worked. The marketing claims have triggered a desire and the purchase has created a good feeling that may even last, perhaps even enriched the whole life of the user….snake oil and its wonders, a complete transfiguration of the listening experience. It may seem surprising but ironically this would be an example where we would have subtracted all the "reason" out of it, actually a more direct path to the more positive feelings and satisfactions.

 

Often the "justification" on a rational level is based on the materiality of objects. My amp weighs 45 kg and has the best OTs. My speakers are handmade and have the most beautiful veneer. My cables transform the sound of music into immeasurable spheres because they have been cryogenically cooled and a Nobel Prize winner in physics has calculated which gold alloy sounds best. He sold me the cables personally and we shook hands.

These are all accessories to prove to ourselves and to our friends that we have not only achieved the best, but also that it was "reasonable" because it is visible and tangible and only through this it means a "proven" appreciation. Perhaps the snake oil buyer is much braver because he does not take this detour.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, DrWho said:

 

There are entire fields that study interior design and architecture and how it emotionally impacts us. All of the greatest listening rooms have these visual design cues that further aid the listening experience... It could be as simple as dimming the lights for an evening listening session, and yet that has no impact on the acoustic waves. However, the emotional state it puts us in sets the context for how the music is heard, and in that sense has a hugely dramatic impact to the music listening experience. Is that snake oil too?

These are very interesting and also from my point of view very true and accurate working thoughts. In a way, it seamlessly connects to the topic discussed above. At the same time we enter a terrain that has a very wide range, in psychology and in philosophy. By the way, my psychological upbringing is closer to your philosophical thoughts than to some psychological methods which have to deal with statistics, multiple choice, behavioral science etc.

Yes, we enter again in a certain way the field of emotions and of course we hear differently when the ambience is inviting and when we have the feeling (or are allowed to feel) that e.g. with dimmed lights we unbound ourselves more and open up.
It is our "ego" that can be like a protective wall or armor to the outside in many situations of (everyday) life but at the same time at the price of reduced introspection, because one can also become more closed inwardly if one protects himself outwardly.

 

To look at it this way, what is the benefit of the dimmed light (of course, only to be seen as an exemplary element in our minds) during the listening demo? For one it is to create the comfort he has at home, for the other it is a possibility to open up (to the music) in a way he can't do at home alone, because as we already discussed here half a year ago, to open up sometimes means to go into uncertain terrain, but not to be afraid because the inviting atmosphere of a good store is opening and at the same time homely. It is always also in a listening demo more what must come into harmony, the music, the hifi gear, the sales situation. What do you "buy"? Happiness, involvement, status, superiority, more access to the structure of the music, design, etc.? 

 

2 hours ago, DrWho said:

Thinking about it some more, isn't the entire audiophile hobby built on the same fundamental principal? The seductive voice we hear singing isn't actually in the room, but we sit in the dark imagining that it is. The entire hobby is established on an experience that isn't physically substantiated. The illusion of music exists only in our minds.

This is also in crucial point. BTW I would be happy if I had a customer in the hi-fi industry for whom I could conduct a study. Maybe I invest a focus group and 10 one on ones with music lovers and hifi enthusiasts on my own account as a start into the research of this category.

 

After (in a study) understanding and being able to describe a bit the basic psychologically effective dimensions of the category we would derive a typology. This is often an exciting part of the story for my clients. I come to this thought because you describe the example of how a magical voice can become reality and still remain incorporeal, or maybe for one listener the voice is an offer to imagine a whole scenery with real people...to beam oneself into a jazz club. Maybe the other listener likes especially this imateriality of the voice without body and scenery. Or what is perhaps also very beautiful, if someone enjoys this twilight zone very much, someone who can go back and forth between the perfect illusion and the mere sound event, as in a deep exciting dream that you can additionally control with your hi-fi system.

 

There are certainly many types of listening. One wants a reproduction of his idea of reality as detailed as possible. I had on the other hand a roommate as a student who studied composition and fine arts. He was not so bad, he had participated in a class with Leonard Bernstein in the USA for a few weeks, he played fantastic piano. I had quite ok hi-fi gear by then and I was very involved in technology and music. My roommate was not interested at all in it. He had a very cheap mono cassette recorder. With it he listened to the most complex musical works of the 20th century and played all the different parts and passages on his Fender Rhodes, he wrote music scores with all the individual instrument parts and he heard all this from his mono cassette recorder. He was really in the structure of the voicing and harmonics as well in the flow of the development of a musical piece.

 

If I were to create a typology this buddy from back then would certainly represent a cornerstone….probably so many different types of life with Hifi gear…
From the purist reducer of the sound event to the structure (like my buddy from back then) to the reproducer of an imaginary sound stage, a simulated reality like on the holodeck of the Starship Enterprise in the Startrek series.

Further, from the "technical scientific" approach for which everything must be measurable (and who in the extreme does not want to hear what he can not measure) to the esoteric on the other side of the spectrum, for which data, circuit diagrams and physical laws do not count at all (BTW is such a guy open minded or narcistical?).

 

Further on, from the epicurean thankful consumer to whom his hi-fi system really opens the door to the musical world for the first time, to the regular visitor of concerts of classical music, jazz and rock etc., who spends more time with real instruments and for whom his hi-fi system should copy this as well as possible (because he is critical and demanding) or for whom the hi-fi system should only remind him of the real events (because he has the music in his head, less radically puristic but similar to my flatmate).

We see, music and stereo is a very very thankful topic.

 

Thank goodness there are many mixed types. In our psychology, the extremes are meant to be illustrative. Fortunately, there are technically skilled people with a strong empathy for music, fortunately, there are emotionally open people who get involved in a new situation with impressive music, fortunately, there are people who buy the most expensive hi-fi system out of their profound love for music and not primarily to impress friends or as a monument to personal success.

 

 

2 hours ago, DrWho said:

 

Who are we to say one illusion (or cognitive bias) is more acceptable than another?

 

Perhaps the "wife" (symbolic of the one not succumb to the illusion) is "always right", but I think it's more fun to be wrong.... 

 

 

Unfortunately, I can not really answer your questions and thoughts, but I also think that the music and in its wake our hifi gear opens a fantastic playground whose special charm I see, among other things, that we can try out and that we have found an exciting interface in life where the material and the immaterial reach out to each other. It is also a place where the childlike playful experimentation reaches out to the deepest moments of life intensity and transience.

Isn't that beautiful?

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