How do I get bass out of Klipsch Cornwall IV?

[Zen Traveler]

3 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

4 hours ago, Seinbeans said:

The Cornwall IV is bigger then most subwoofers  if this Cornwall IV can’t play bass sound then that means this Cornwall IV is not a good speaker

yes

I nominate this one for post of the year. Who’s with me?

Ha! Most subwoofers have a WAY more beefier power supply to hit those notes and is limited to what it can produce frequencywise. 

[OO1]

 

 

54 minutes ago, JJkizak said:

The comments that Klipsch speakers are not known for bass are absurd.

JJK

 Yep , And  you can add  the  Chorus 1-2 or the KP-301  - tons of bass

[Schu]

Oh I get it now... OP wanted to get the bass OUT of the speaker, as in less bass. 😛

[Dave A]

3 hours ago, 001 said:

they can use  the K-45 to deliver more slamming bass  in the  next , upcoming  CW V 

So have you tried this? Why are you recommending these for CW's?

[Travis In Austin]

9 hours ago, Seinbeans said:

The Cornwall IV is bigger then most subwoofers  if this Cornwall IV can’t play bass sound then that means this Cornwall IV is not a good speaker

yes

No.

 

Apples and oranges. It's not hornloaded bass which does have  a direct correlation between the size of the cabinet-because of the length of number of folds, etc. to reach the length of the desired low end frequency. 

[Travis In Austin]

On 6/30/2021 at 6:17 PM, Seinbeans said:

Get subwoofer for bass oh! But that may not work cuz this Cornwall 4 is bigger then most subwoofers 

the way I get the bass is I use a 5 inch bookshelf for mids and a 15 inch subwoofer for bass yeah my 15 inch subwoofer doesn’t play frequencies above 59Hz that makes my bass sound stand out very much from my bookshelf speakers very thick  bumping beats 

Again, the size of a speaker has nothing to do with it if it isn't hornloaded.

[Islander]

On 6/30/2021 at 4:17 PM, Seinbeans said:

Get subwoofer for bass oh! But that may not work cuz this Cornwall 4 is bigger then most subwoofers 

the way I get the bass is I use a 5 inch bookshelf for mids and a 15 inch subwoofer for bass yeah my 15 inch subwoofer doesn’t play frequencies above 59Hz that makes my bass sound stand out very much from my bookshelf speakers very thick  bumping beats 

 

You may be getting some kind of sound, along with your very thick bumping beats with your system, but how much does it sound like the band or singer performing live in front of you?  That should be the goal, to be able to hear at home what you'd hear at a concert or festival.  That takes a system that's smooth and coordinated, from the lowest bass to the highest treble, with no dips or peaks anywhere.  It's not a sound producer, it's a sound reproducer, so that's exactly what it should do.  In the same way, a TV should show the picture clearly, with every colour as saturated and as bright or as dim as it would look if you were there standing beside the camera, with no unnatural colours, unless that's what the director wanted.

 

It would be great if every speaker could do this, but you have to spend a lot of money to get that, and I mean over $30,000 in most cases.  For the rest of us, a subwoofer is almost always needed to get the really deep bass, that last couple of octaves.  Another factor at play with most Klipsch Heritage speakers (the ones designed by Paul Klipsch himself) is that most of them are completely horn-loaded.  This means that they have a horn in front of each driver, a small one for the tweeter, a bigger one for the squawker (the mid-range driver), and a much bigger one for the woofer.  Each horn is designed and tuned to work with its driver.

 

That's where the compromises begin.  High-pitched sound has very short wavelengths, sometimes less than an inch long.  Bass sounds, though, have very long wavelengths, up to 40 feet long.  The horn has to be a certain fraction of the wavelength in its length.  That's fine for the tweeter and squawker, but for really deep bass the horn would have to be 10 or 20 feet long, which wouldn't fit in most homes.  Working with a shorter bass horn that will fit in most homes means the bass won't go all that deep.  That's where the subwoofer comes in.  It's specialized to produce deep bass.

 

Why bother with horns, then?  Well, they make a speaker far more efficient, so the speaker cone barely moves, even when playing really loud.  This means that the distortion is really low, and the music sounds much more clear, more like you're actually in front of the stage.  Also, you don't need a big expensive monster amp to play your music really loud.  The money saved there may be enough to pay for a good sub, but it's even better to have two, because a direct-firing sub is not as efficient as a horn-loaded speaker, and its distortion is higher.  If you have two subs, the sound is more even around the room, so no big bass dips or peaks, which are weird, not cool.  As well, with two subs, each cone moves half as far, cutting the distortion in half.  Size-wise, each of my speakers is the size of a fridge, so the subwoofers look tiny beside them.  That's a picture of the Left one in the thumbnail at left, getting its tweeter dusted by the Hi-Fi Fairy.

 

So there you go.  Great horn-loaded speakers, combined with a good sub or two, are the best way to get clean clear natural-sounding music, like you were at the concert.  Hope this is helpful.

[Travis In Austin]

10 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

I nominate this one for post of the year. Who’s with me?

No, question of the year maybe? Not sure if language barrier, but taking it at face value, in conjunction with his previous post, and giving benefit of the doubt,  my assumption is a misunderstanding about size of the box with DR bass vs. size of the box with horn loaded bass. 

 

Some people like chest thumping bass, which is artificial, not really true sound reproduction, or as close thereto as possible, in the way that PWK intended. 

 

It's what kind of music you are used to, what you grew up on so to speak. @mark1101 or JC can explain it better than me. JC grew up on funk, and sound systems that play it. Roy has indicated that are ears/brains calibrate to what we are used to.

 

PWK would say "I going to go recalibrate my ears" which was a Klipschism for he was going to a live performance of some accoustical concert work. He would do that to get to one of his core values - accurate sound reproduction. 

 

JC likes smack yo up side da head, in yo face bass. He could care less what the distortion is from his DR vs. his horn loaded bass systems because Cool, Parliment, Funkadelic and 100 others sounds better to him through a proper DR bass system. You have to be moving some serious air to make him happy. 

 

If you grew up, like my nieces did, on Bass Nektar concerts - EDM, a nightclub in Denver with the most powerful Funktion One Systen in the US at the time, you are going to be calibrated to that, and you are not going to get that at home with any of these speakers, because the bass at those EDM concerts is processed (gated and limited) to where is sounds (more like feels) it is below 20 but isn't really. They can also make it sound twice as loud as it really is to avoid being fined at outdoor events like at Red Rocks for example.

 

Spoke to a bass player who had performed/recorded Marshall stacks who bought new Cornwalls, and he said it took a little while for them to grow on him, now he wouldn't trade them for anything after listening to Jaco, Paul Chambers, Jack Bruce, Stanley, Larry Graham etc. sound so good through the same set of speakers. It's the same story, he had never heard something before, or he could hear this guys fingers doing that, or "I never knew Ox was playing that line on . . . .

 

I have been to many, many live performances of concert works (improperly referred to as "classical") and operas and not once, not a single time, have I heard "chest thumping bass." 

 

Normally all of you guys ask what people listen to (not sure if I saw that in here or not), and based (no pun) on that I have seen people respond that they are familiar with the music and it's a good fit, or not.

 

What are these folks' point of reference? Strictly jazz and they don't have no stinkin' bass? Blues? Urban? EDM? Opera? Organ Music?

 

Without knowing their point of reference regarding bass, it just seems to me it is really difficult to help them with where they are going.

 

Some people just need more barn, and nothing is going to change that.

[Travis In Austin]

47 minutes ago, Islander said:

So there you go.  Great horn-loaded speakers, combined with a good sub or two, are the best way to get clean clear natural-sounding music, like you were at the concert.  Hope this is helpful.

That's a tough act (post) to follow, I may hide mine now.

[Travis In Austin]

9 hours ago, 001 said:

if klipsch wanted to fill that void   they can use  the K-45 to deliver more slamming bass  in the  next , upcoming  CW V  -

 

Just to clarify, that was sort of a tounge in cheek response I'm guessing. Anyone on the verge of buying Cornwall IV's seeing this and thinking there is a Mk. V right around the corner and I better wait - don't. There is no "upcoming" Cornwall V.

[Dave A]

1 hour ago, dwilawyer said:

JC likes smack yo up side da head, in yo face bass. He could care less what the distortion is from his DR vs. his horn loaded bass systems because Cool, Parliment, Funkadelic and 100 others sounds better to him through a proper DR bass system. You have to be moving some serious air to make him happy. 

 

True that. I believe he is running some 415/4 LF bass bins right now plus no doubt a sub somewhere.

 

  I have followed this thread with interest as I was very impressed with the CW4 I heard.

[OO1]

1 hour ago, dwilawyer said:

 

Just to clarify, that was sort of a tounge in cheek response I'm guessing.

correct  -the k45 was designed by klipsch for better bass --it's in pretty much every 15 inch Pro klipsch speaker ,

 

K-1545:K-1548.pdf

[wuzzzer]

Guys, user seinbeans is a troll from other forums I belong to.  Please don't encourage the troll. 

[Travis In Austin]

8 minutes ago, wuzzzer said:

Guys, user seinbeans is a troll from other forums I belong to.  Please don't encourage the troll. 

Tanks a bunch on that. 

 

Apparently he is also a "pederast." [Google seinbeans, see what pops up on youtube]

 

Always like to give benefit of the doubt, but thankfully my posts was more towards the first 5 pages rather to him. 

[garyrc]

• I had a McIntosh c28 preamp that had up to about 20 dB bass boost via the tone controls AND two Bass Trim controls that has about 2.5 dB more at 100 Hz, and 5 dB at 20 Hz.  It worked great in optimizing bass in many recordings, with many speakers, including Klipsch, JBL. ADC, etc.   It was a marvelous preamp in all ways except one; the right phono channel kept going out, was repaired several times, then sold.
• Even better was an very expensive Luxman integrated amp, L580 (I think) that had a choice of THREE turn-over frequencies for each tone control, AND a Low Boost switch (4 dB) for either 150 Hz or 70 Hz.  I tended to use Low Boost 70 Hz and bass tone control + 2 at the lowest turnover (150 Hz) on my Klipschorns.  The bass was incredibly clean, warm, and impactive.  On Fanfare for the Common Man, my desk would go out of square, and windows would rattle at the other end of the house.  Windows in the music room had to have wedges (shims) put into them so they wouldn't rattle.
• More recently, in another house, we converted to combo music listening room and home theater, and settled for a Marantz preamp processor, and several NAD power amps.  Its tone controls are limited to +/- 6 dB, but, fortunately it has Audyssey, which measures the room from the main listening position, and provides up to 20 dB cut and 9 dB boost.  This works well most of the time, and I can further EQ for idiosyncratic recordings with the tone controls at +/- 6 dB.  Sometimes that is not enough, but when it is, it's great!

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

17 minutes ago, 001 said:

correct  -the k45 was designed by klipsch for better bass --it's in pretty much every 15 inch Pro klipsch speaker ,

 

K-1545:K-1548.pdf

 

I was referring to the "upcoming Cornwall V" there isn't one, and nobody needs to be waiting for one in terms of a purchase decision.

 

The K45 was selected, and spec-ed for the speakers it is in to provide for the best bass. They are not interchangeable. I want better bass so I will put in a K45 in my CW or Khorn and I will have better bass? Hopefully no one is even remotely considering that, and I'm not clear now on what the post means or is intended. 

 

I have heard the CW IV, own the II, III, and the Pro CW, it doesn't need anything in my opinion. I would also venture to say anyone with nothing to do who ventured to try putting a K45 in there for grins would be extremely disappointed, the whole thing is engineered together - front tractrix porting, new balancing network (XO), and the other drivers. It would sound like every other home brew box with swapped drivers - a loud, untuned, box spewing noise that the builder/swapper thinks is the new end all. 

 

From a manufacturing standpoint it is always better if you can use the same woofer in as many products as possible, if it was a good fit it would be in there, it isn't, so my guess is it's not a good fit. One thing I am sure of, 100%, Roy isn't reading any of this and going "man, why didn't I think of that, a K-45."

 

If you change the woofer "you detune the design." @mark1101 You can ask @jwc about this, he has messed around this probably more than anyone with his DBB. He dunked a CW in water to figure out the exact displacement as I recall. he concluded that the woofer in the CW at the time was the perfect match for the displacement, changing it was walking backwards. Knowing that, he started changing the displacement and came up with the DBB - always searching for the "slap yo mama, in yo face bass" his music requires. 

 

I'm sure that Mark and JC, who have messed around with this a lot, and know what they are doing would tell a CW owner, whether it be a IV or III (and they have both heard the IV, extensively) would say the last thing on earth you want to do is to put a K-45 in your new Cornwalls and that what is in their currently is the best for that design, loading and displacement.

 

 

[OO1]

nice collection -

[jwc]

10 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

 

I was referring to the "upcoming Cornwall V" there isn't one, and nobody needs to be waiting for one in terms of a purchase decision.

 

The K45 was selected, and spec-ed for the speakers it is in to provide for the best bass. They are not interchangeable. I want better bass so I will put in a K45 in my CW or Khorn and I will have better bass? Hopefully no one is even remotely considering that, and I'm not clear now on what the post means or is intended. 

 

I have heard the CW IV, own the II, III, and the Pro CW, it doesn't need anything in my opinion. I would also venture to say anyone with nothing to do who ventured to try putting a K45 in there for grins would be extremely disappointed, the whole thing is engineered together - front tractrix porting, new balancing network (XO), and the other drivers. It would sound like every other home brew box with swapped drivers - a loud, untuned, box spewing noise that the builder/swapper thinks is the new end all. 

 

From a manufacturing standpoint it is always better if you can use the same woofer in as many products as possible, if it was a good fit it would be in there, it isn't, so my guess is it's not a good fit. One thing I am sure of, 100%, Roy isn't reading any of this and going "man, why didn't I think of that, a K-45."

 

If you change the woofer "you detune the design." @mark1101 You can ask @jwc about this, he has messed around this probably more than anyone with his DBB. He dunked a CW in water to figure out the exact displacement as I recall. he concluded that the woofer in the CW at the time was the perfect match for the displacement, changing it was walking backwards. Knowing that, he started changing the displacement and came up with the DBB - always searching for the "slap yo mama, in yo face bass" his music requires. 

 

I'm sure that Mark and JC, who have messed around with this a lot, and know what they are doing would tell a CW owner, whether it be a IV or III (and they have both heard the IV, extensively) would say the last thing on earth you want to do is to put a K-45 in your new Cornwalls and that what is in their currently is the best for that design, loading and displacement.

 

 

I'm not an audio engineer but a past tinkerer.

 

I think changing out the woofer to some other model is futile.

 

Change to another woofer will have its pitfalls and that other woofers may have a different impedance at the crossover point as well as creating a change in the phase.  Other issues as well.  I have seen Roy do his magic with a -12 db crosser between the woofer the horn mid and he would stick an extra inductor or "pole" in order to bring it somewhere between -12 and -18 dB roll off to make the phase right.  Very clever and takes a lot of measurements.  Not something that us novices can do that easily with a passive

.

He has to think for minute exactly what you have there.  The Cornwall 4 is one of the highest efficiency based reflex speaker system available.  That 15 inch Woofer has the challenge to reach out to 600-700 Hz while keeping a decent low end.  For that system to be very strong in the 30 to 40 Hz area is tough while being of high fidelity in the higher mid band.

I am sure you could put that same woofer in the same size cabinet and extend the port and it would do a better job at reaching lower frequencies.  I am sure it would look good on the curve too but I would wager having more energy in the lower frequencies you sacrifice the fidelity of higher frequencies.

 

I did a bunch of do it yourself reflex port stuff with the Klipsch K 33 when you used to be able to directly order from Klipsch parts.  I have found that in a 6 cubic foot cabinet,.... and tuning down to 35 Hz created a boomy bass and the overall system itself would be degraded.  I found that the system sounded better when ported to 38 Hz or 40 Hz.

 

Being that I am a Klipsch fan,  you have a great speaker.  Sometimes it might not be what you were looking for.  Certainly the room could have an issue and your electronics, but in my opinion for you to start changing gear and moving to another house is not the answer.  Heck you can change all the capacitors in the crossover ...... and change all the internal wiring to pure silver on the crossover, input speaker leads, and voice coil.  That type of thing is fun to do when it is a complete DIY project.
 

[CoryGillmore]

4 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

 He dunked a CW in water to figure out the exact displacement as I recall.  

 

 

 

Wow speak on that a little more! So he removed all the drivers, and I assume he wrapped the cabinet in some sort of plastic, a painstaking process I would imagine, then dunked it in water to see exactly how much water the cabinet holds? So he dunks it, pulls it out then drains the water into a giant measuring cup to see how much is in there? 

 

Or is it actually just measuring how much water the entire cabinet displaces? 

[KT88]

36 minutes ago, CoryGillmore said:

Wow speak on that a little more! So he removed all the drivers, and I assume he wrapped the cabinet in some sort of plastic, a painstaking process I would imagine, then dunked it in water to see exactly how much water the cabinet holds? So he dunks it, pulls it out then drains the water into a giant measuring cup to see how much is in there? 

 

Or is it actually just measuring how much water the entire cabinet displaces? 

That would be fun to know. I guess he also dunked the drivers and the Xover to get the actual net volume?😮