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Did Klipsch use bone glue for Heritage models in the past?


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33 minutes ago, RandyH001 said:

not really ,  guitars are not built like speakers , and speakers require conventional , non animal  wood adhesives -------klipsch never used animal glue , that was the main question ---

sound boxes are not like speakers?

Brass Instruments are not like expanding horns?

 

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Thanks for the link, mustang_flht. I spoke yesterday with his quasi competitor from the old days, Werner Enge in the north and his competitor in the south of Germany, these two used to be the only Klipsch distributors in Germany. I will be happy to contact Werner, I have not met him yet, let's see what he says on the subject:)

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1 hour ago, billybob said:

 

Which is it? A contradiction...

--NO 

 

lutherie use animal glue as the instruments are built in layers - and in case of a repair , steam is used to unglue the animal glue residue  -

speaker cabinets are glued , then NAILED  for a tighter  seal given the higher sound pressures -

 

--2 very different manufacturing processes -

-further factor is the lower shelf life and vulnerability of animal glue to micro organisms and bacteria  since it is made from Animal remains -

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6 minutes ago, RandyH001 said:

lutherie use animal glue as the instruments are built in layers - and in case of a repair , steam is used to unbond the animal glue residue  -

speaker cabinets are glued , then nailed for a tight  seal given the higher sound pressures -

 

--2 very different manufacturing processes --I hope this clears up the confusion  - 

-further factor is the lower shelf life and vulnerability of animal glue to micro organisms and bacteria  since it is made from Animal remains -

No actually was referring you to the two quotes. One said Klipsch uses animal glue, the other you said no, they did not.

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4 minutes ago, billybob said:

No actually was referring you to the two quotes. One said Klipsch uses animal glue, the other you said no, they did not.

tx ,mistypo on my end ---klipsch does NOT use animal glue , tx for bringing it up -

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Traditionally, here in Europe, cabinetmakers used fish glue ansd other type. For example to make marquetry, bows, violin making ... Often the glue came from Russia where there was a lot of estugeons, they used swim bladders rich in collagen

Today this high-end glue is manufactured in small quantities and is used for prestige cabinetmaking and for the restoration of antique furniture.

 

https://www.gillesperrault.com/vertus-des-colles-anciennes/

 

 

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3 hours ago, Schu said:

sound boxes are not like speakers?

Brass Instruments are not like expanding horns?

 

 

Well, a guitar builder will tell you he designs his guitar to have a certain sound. A trumpet maker will say the same. The speaker designer will usually claim that their speaker box or horn are designed to perfectly imitate those instruments. The measurement freaks will claim that "well designed speakers have no inherent sound of their own!!!" But we all know that speaker designers cannot actually make "colorless" speakers and a few people actually admit that Klipsch (or other designers) have their own sound. None of that means the type of glue matters, and I personally doubt it has any effect. An unglued versus a glued box I could believe might sound different. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Finely-veneered cabinets with the mitered corners were assembled, FOR THE BASIC BOX using urea-formaldehyde glue, spmetimes called "brown glue"to secure the miter-joints   It is a water-soluble powder that has to be mixed together carefully so that it is not too thin or too thick....since the finely-veneered miter joint cabinets used panels made of poplar lumber-core plywood, that meant you were bonding the end-grain of the poplar lumber core together at those miter-joints, and the "brown glue" was best for that.  All other parts of the construction  glues used were the "white glues, which was pretty-much the equivalent to tight-bond..  The K-horn bass bins had parts of it assembled using the brown glue, while other parts were assembled using the white glue.  

 

If there was ever any hide glue used, I am not aware of it...because from the very beginning of the company, urea-formaldehyde "brown-glue" was a furniture industry standard....especially in assembiy of poplar-lumber-core-plywood panels.

 

EPA pretty much killed off the use of urea-formaldehyde glues for the most part, about the same time as Klipsch went over to using finely-veneered MDF panels for pretty much everything, except the basic K-horn Bass bin structure.

 

One of the problems in furniture mass-production is dealing with glue squeeze-outs...especially when it involves the possibility of those squeeze-outs getting into the grain of the fine veneers at miter joints.  Because then you have created yet ANOTHER problem AT those miter joints...how to get rid of any squeeze-out which occurred during the assembly of those miter joints, so that there is no "adhesive shadow" remining in the deeper part of the fine veneer grain right at those joints.  Using Urea-formaldehyde glue for those miter joints severely reduces the possibility of stains and final finishes displayng an adhesive shadow at those joints.  This is one of the reasons that hte "white glues" were not used for assembly at the miter-joints themselves, although the "white glues" WERE used for the reinforcing glue blocks on the inside of those joints...because the inside edges of the front of the boxes were shot with flat black paint, which kept any "white glue" shadow from being noticeable.

 

There was a specific technique used for the application of the "brown glue" to the miters of the panels to minimize the squeeze-out to a bare minimum at the "toe" of the joint, so that there was no possibility of the brown glue getting into the fine veneer deep grain when assembling the cabinet.  We used flattened-out soup spoons that had been carefully ground down at the edges to apply that brown glue...to the panels at the miter cuts....with the "toe" edge facing down flat, slightly over the edge of the work bench, then we skimmed off the glue from the sharp edge of the toe, about 1/16th of an inch along that edge...if done correctly.  That way there was enough squeeze-out to re-surface that with the glue from above that point, but WITHOUT having any squeeze-out at all at the miter-toe, itself!  Sometimes visitors would stand and watch us do that, and I would just say to them..."if you think THIS IS COOL, then you outta see me ice a cake!"😁

 

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On 6/9/2021 at 12:37 PM, RandyH001 said:

--NO 

 

lutherie use animal glue as the instruments are built in layers - and in case of a repair , steam is used to unglue the animal glue residue  -

speaker cabinets are glued , then NAILED  for a tighter  seal given the higher sound pressures -

 

--2 very different manufacturing processes -

-further factor is the lower shelf life and vulnerability of animal glue to micro organisms and bacteria  since it is made from Animal remains -

 

While animal glues are still used, many luthiers use PVA/Aliphatic resins, epoxy and CA.

 

 

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3 hours ago, HDBRbuilder said:

Sometimes visitors would stand and watch us do that, and I would just say to them..."if you think

That is cool, thanks for that.

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22 minutes ago, Marvel said:

 

While animal glues are still used, many luthiers use PVA/Aliphatic resins, epoxy and CA.

I am happy to hear this , we have the technology ,to avoid slaughtering  more Animals for simply making glue -

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On 6/18/2021 at 11:04 PM, Marvel said:

 

While animal glues are still used, many luthiers use PVA/Aliphatic resins, epoxy and CA.

 

 

 

The use of hide glue versus PVA is very controversial in some corners of lutherie, approaching "tubes versus solid state" energy levels. I do not take a side. I've built several ukuleles, the oldest is ten years old. I do not have credibility in that argument. The experts have been using both types of glue for decades and repairing even older instruments. They are divided on which is best.  

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I watched a long, two part video of a repair made on a $4k plus Gibson mandolin. Two or three other folks had messed with it. The neck was warped, the truss rod was wacked. He shaved some things down, made a whole new fretboard, made new truss rod... The owner was happy. Repairs had been done with CA, but this guy just used yellow glue, looked like TiteBond. 

--

 

Had a guy do a temp repair on the binding on my Taylor. It needs replacing, but he got it to where it won't come off or have the guitar damaged any more.

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