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The Amazing Autotransformer


Langston

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10 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

That’s not a klipschorn anymore. Mod it all you want but it’s not a klipschorn.....by the way fishing is awesome!!

Neither are Jubilees or Diamon Jubilees..................they are better, but it took 50 years for PWK, and 75 for the latest. What product ever made can claim a 75 year production run and was soo good to begin with that it transcended emerging technologies. Paul was right about the Klipschorn being the optimum size. I had the same setup he had (2ph3) for over 30 years until I heard BIGGER in Hope almost 14 years ago!

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33 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Neither are Jubilees or Diamon Jubilees..................they are better, but it took 50 years for PWK, and 75 for the latest. What product ever made can claim a 75 year production run and was soo good to begin with that it transcended emerging technologies. Paul was right about the Klipschorn being the optimum size. I had the same setup he had (2ph3) for over 30 years until I heard BIGGER in Hope almost 14 years ago!

Actually if Mr K wanted to call the jubilee a khorn (which is what he wanted in the first place; a klipschorn II), then it’s him and only him that can call it whatever he wants. It’s kinda his baby....🙂

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10 hours ago, Langston said:

 

That is a fact. My stomach turned when I wrote that. Input and output power are almost equal with the autotransformer vs. a resistor L-Pad where power is dissipated to ground. And you're right - the swamping resistor is an expense - an expense I'm more than willing to pay given what I get out of it.

 

Re: the Chief, I'd love to meet you - but I don't have the patience for fishing. Let me know if I'm a problem and I'll disappear.

 

At this moment I'm half way through a Crosby Stills and Nash album using the Klipschorn as intended as a 3-way (triamplified), and cheating further with the Crites A-55-G/K-400 and DE120 Dave Harris Tractrix. Very nice, but falls short of the two 2-ways (biamplified) I've tried the last two weeks, even at low levels. At higher levels It can't flesh out the lower frequency meat that the 2 inch drivers deliver even though the crossover points are identical. L/R location is much more toward the loudspeakers, whereas the two 2 inch / Harris Tractrix 2-way setups I've tried result in the loudspeakers largely disappearing. Nevertheless I could easily live with this "classical" 3-way system. The ear/brain system adapts. "Helplessly Hoping" just started. Phenomenal. : )

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

Also. You are not a problem. I wonder when someone would get around to testing inductors. Your testing technic has just a hint of.....he’s done this before!!  🙂

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Thanks so much - sorry I misunderstood. : ) I was starting to annoy myself for pushing this thing so far and thought maybe I was posting too much about it. It's my first real attempt to understand the inductor, tapped or not. Plugging stuff into software and designing crossovers is easy, but I wanted an intuitive grasp of what was going on. I won't be surprised if what I learn leads me back to the active stuff I've been doing for years, but I hope not. I joined the forum recently to learn about this and the strange triangular loudspeaker that goes in the corner - like the bad kid in school. I've received this in spades and really appreciate it. : )

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4 hours ago, Langston said:

Thanks so much - sorry I misunderstood. : ) I was starting to annoy myself for pushing this thing so far and thought maybe I was posting too much about it. It's my first real attempt to understand the inductor, tapped or not. Plugging stuff into software and designing crossovers is easy, but I wanted an intuitive grasp of what was going on. I won't be surprised if what I learn leads me back to the active stuff I've been doing for years, but I hope not. I joined the forum recently to learn about this and the strange triangular loudspeaker that goes in the corner - like the bad kid in school. I've received this in spades and really appreciate it. : )

Fun to hear about someone's first Khorn experience. I had mine at 14 since my paper route days. I used to bike right by a Klipsch Dealer in Detroit in the late 60's. Bought my first stereo from them (Ampex) and they played "those big things in the window" for me while I was loading up my little brother's Red Wagon to bring them home. I lived about 5 blocks away! Riveting, to say the least and it only took 9 more years for me to afford a pair. 

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22 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

Actually if Mr K wanted to call the jubilee a khorn (which is what he wanted in the first place; a klipschorn II), then it’s him and only him that can call it whatever he wants. It’s kinda his baby....🙂

Since he left us almost 20 years ago, then it's up to his successors to call it whatever is deemed most Marketable. Technically, this would be a Klipsrhorn III, if that particular course were to be followed. But I don't see that happening at all.

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I love to see the passion and excitement Klipschorns still evoke!  Though I went on a wide circle of modding, drivers and crossovers, etc.for a decade or so on my Klipschorns one thing remained true throughout the trip and afterwards (when I decided to stay with my pretty much stock ak-3 K-horns);  nothing else gives me the joy playing music on my k-horns do.  that it what binds most of us together here, the common joy we get from our PWK derived products.  As always I send y'all warm regards from sunny el salvador, Tony

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  • 1 year later...

Langston - outstanding contribution to this forum!
 

autoformers vs resistors - efficacy? Power loss, distortion, cost, etc.

 

I did a fair amount of testing years ago on a number of things, but only one involving the question of resistors - and then a very simple test. I built two identical crossovers designed to deliver a 400hz midrange cross point - but gave one the swamping resistor autoformer treatment, (with corresponding capacitor)  and the other no swamping resistor, (with corresponding capacitor). 
 

Running controlled full test sweeps on Klipschorns with all drivers running on the full network with amplifier setting locked, there was a significant difference, maybe 3db in output from the speaker between the two crossovers across the entire midrange. Very, very little impact response variance was measured. In any event, the swamping resistor crossover produced about 3db less output across the range. At the time, I laughed to myself because Bob Crites, a consummate gentlemen in every respect,  described the difference as sounding like “someone put a sock in it.” Of course the issues raised by this thread are much broader than the question of resistors used for impedance swamping.

 

In any event, given the migration over the decades of apparently all speaker manufacturers, including Klipsch, to the full resistor-based attenuation approach, I too have wanted to get more insight and understanding of the potential advantages and disadvantages. 
 

One thing is clear to me and to Roy’s credit, Klipsch heritage speakers with the latest passive, steep slope, resistor-based networks have never sounded better I’m my opinion. 


Great thread!
 


 

 

 

 

 

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On 2/17/2023 at 8:18 PM, Ezwind said:

I'm a newbie putting together some homebrew La Scale and need the proper 3636 pin out for a simple type A  crossover. Thanks for your help.

 

Depends on what you mean by "proper" 🙂

 

Crites will use input taps 5 - 0 and output taps 4 - 0 to achieve a 3db attenuation to the squawker.  The T2A's tap 4 used in the Klipsch Type A is actually -3.3db.  If you want what I would consider proper, use input taps X - 0 and output taps X - 1.  This will get you -3.3db and get you really close to the inductance of a T2A.  Hopefully my poor drawing helps.  Notice that the tweeter circuit now uses input taps X - 0 and output taps X - 0.

 

Mike

 

 

TypeA.thumb.jpg.f92176b5328163b90b91b7a8c92362df.jpg

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  • 1 year later...

Langston and all other esteemed posters!!!

 

Enjoyed this discussion a lot.   As a relative new comer and a proud owner of Heresy IV's, I've been wondering about this very same thing (I think...) lately....and clueless about any of it.  All I had in mind was some "device" that might be installed on the existing crossovers that would allow the user to "adjust" the power on one or more of the horns. The came up when I was faced with a lot of room treatments to tone down the highs.  Sure would be a lot easier to adjust the horns.  From what I read here, my idea was far from new.  Similar devices have been used in the past.  From you experience, would a device like the autoformer work on, say a Heresy, the same what it worked on a K-horn or the other big ones?   Thanks.  Rob

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13 hours ago, RobMarshall said:

Langston and all other esteemed posters!!!

 

Enjoyed this discussion a lot.   As a relative new comer and a proud owner of Heresy IV's, I've been wondering about this very same thing (I think...) lately....and clueless about any of it.  All I had in mind was some "device" that might be installed on the existing crossovers that would allow the user to "adjust" the power on one or more of the horns. The came up when I was faced with a lot of room treatments to tone down the highs.  Sure would be a lot easier to adjust the horns.  From what I read here, my idea was far from new.  Similar devices have been used in the past.  From you experience, would a device like the autoformer work on, say a Heresy, the same what it worked on a K-horn or the other big ones?   Thanks.  Rob

 

The Heresy I and II used autoformers.  Klipsch went to series resistors starting with the Heresy III.

The crossover in your Heresy IV is pretty complex.  Are you asking if autoformer(s) could be used in those?

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3 hours ago, mboxler said:

 

The Heresy I and II used autoformers.  Klipsch went to series resistors starting with the Heresy III.

The crossover in your Heresy IV is pretty complex.  Are you asking if autoformer(s) could be used in those?

I’d think L pads (adjustable or fixed) would be the easier solution to drop the mid and tweet output if he finds them too “bright”

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Thanks all:

 

mboxer -  I guess.  But I hardly even know what I am saying since I have no technical knowledge of these devices/components.   I came across the idea of "L-pads" and "autoformers" a day or so back.  Since then, I think I saw an image of an automaker, but not an L-pad.   I came across them googling for ways to attenuate power to horns. I am 95%  content with the Heresy IV 's because I listen mostly to acoustical tracks and some jazz guitar (Pat Matheny.  If you have not listen to his stuff....please do.  It's insanely good and sounds amazing on Klipsch horns - other worldly good).   But ever once and a while, I want to listen to something else...and the horns can sometimes come across a little bright.  So from there, I starting thinking, if there was some sort of device that could be integrated with the crossover (or not integrated with the cross over and placed between the crossover and the horn terminals) that could be user controlled.   I agree too, the IV's crossover is a very different monster.  I long for the old style...it's like the VW motor of old...you could find and fix anything.

 

Sure appreciate everyone..and I hope I did not stir up any anything with my questions or post.

 

UPDATE:   As soon as I posted this I started googling acoustic "L-pad" and was introduced to a new world I never new existed.   So this idea of tuning horns has been around a while.  I don't know if I will ever do it, I might never be able to justify it...but if the Heresy's came with it...I would not object in the least.  Just seems like it would be a worthwhile feature.

Edited by RobMarshall
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12 hours ago, Deang said:

If it sounds good on most things, and sometimes not on others - it’s not the speakers it’s the recordings. 

Yup. And the total fallacy of some "Audiophiles," is the statement:

"I want my speakers to give me the sound as the Artist intended."

PWK did it right with his recordings and hsi 2PH3 Array of Horns.

The rest of the recordings TODAY, have been Stepped ON a half dozen times in the Mastering stages with so many Electronic Toys....

All driven by the idiots with a big checkbook the say: "Make everything louder than everything else."

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18 hours ago, winglet said:

I’d think L pads (adjustable or fixed) would be the easier solution to drop the mid and tweet output if he finds them too “bright”

2 Words: ROOM Treatments!

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16 hours ago, avguytx said:

Or a parametric EQ.  Or any decent EQ for that matter.

Since commercial recordings get "stepped on" so many times and so many ways, what's one more Step?

At least the user has the final Control Step instead of out of control idiots with large checkbooks!

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