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Heresy Woofers


Bulkogi

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10 minutes ago, KT88 said:

Customized is also a phrase, at least to my understanding, that is used when a customer wants a personal modification that is originally realized by the factory...and therefore it is very original.


Yes Klipsch could customize their products and it would be an original item designed and customized by them… but anyone other than Klipsch customizing or modifying a Klipsch product can’t legitimately call it an original Klipsch design or Klipsch Custom Design or Klipsch Modified Design since it wasn’t an actual Klipsch Design..!!!

 

Its really that simple IMHO.. 

miketn 🙂

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I have followed everyone's responses with interest and, as is often the case, the topic has gone outside of my original questions.  That's fine with me.  Interesting debates are interesting, including this one!

 

But, as a reminder, my original post was simply a list of four questions.  I was not advocating any of them, but simply trying to get some ideas on whether or not I should replace or re-cone the faded and dusty woofers in my 32 year old Heresy IIs.

 

For what it's worth, and based on the on-point advice in this thread, I have decided not to replace or re-cone the original woofers.  I am leaving them stock.  I've dusted them as best I can with a brush and am going to otherwise leave them as-is and declare the look to be "patina"!  😀

 

Now, moving beyond my original questions, because others have already:  

 

As I posted separately yesterday in my summary of the project, I did only two things to the speakers functionally:

 

1.  I had Crites replace the four original capacitors in the crossover networks with new Sonicap capacitors.  The rest of the crossovers are untouched.  I did that only because the original ones were 32 years old and I had noticed that the speakers sounded duller and were lacking some presence compared to when I bought them used in 2001.  In other words, I did that to bring them back to spec so that they would sound "as good as new."   Yes, the Sonicaps are polypropylene and the originals were electrolytic, but my understanding is that they have the exact same values and are not considered a sonic upgrade.  In any event, with the original tweeters, they now sound exactly as I remember them sounding when I bought them (at which point they were 12 years old).  I cannot solder and this service seemed to be the most logical available step.

 

2.  I did also purchase, and have installed for now, the Crites titanium diaphragms for the tweeters, which absolutely is a modification.  No question there.  But two things.  First, everything else about these speakers is still original.  Second, I can always put the phenolic diaphragms back into the tweeters (I am keeping them safe and sound).  So far the jury is out but I mostly enjoy the even more lively sound in my system.  If Klipsch still sells original phenolic diaphragms for these tweeters, I would certainly consider buying a pair.  But to me this is kind of like putting an Edelbrock carburetor and intake manifold on an old 289 mustang, and perhaps also a set of headers.  True, it's no longer bone stock original, but it's still a Ford, it's still a Mustang, and it's easily reversible.

 

It is correct to point out that my speakers are no longer original.  That is an objective fact.  But to say they are no longer Klipsch is not a fact; rather, it's an opinion and it's dogmatic.  It's ideology, a purity test, and a bucket of cold water, LOL.  YMMV, of course!

Edited by Bulkogi
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1 hour ago, Edgar said:

 

"Modified" also works. "Customized" implies that there is some intelligence behind the changes. "Modified" also covers those cases where there is not. 

 

I would never “assume” a Customized or Modified item was done intelligently regardless of the labeling…😄

 

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40 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:


Yes Klipsch could customize their products and it would be an original item designed and customized by them… but anyone other than Klipsch customizing or modifying a Klipsch product can’t legitimately call it an original Klipsch design or Klipsch Custom Design or Klipsch Modified Design since it wasn’t an actual Klipsch Design..!!!

 

Its really that simple IMHO.. 

miketn 🙂

Absolutely correct with respect to the customized component.  The question remains, however, whether a third party component renders the speaker no longer a Klipsch at all.  I think it's dogmatic to say it does.  A Cornscalla is no longer a Klipsch even though it is inspired by Klipsch.  Few people would argue that it is.  But a pair of Heresy IIs that (1) have recapped crossover networks that share the same specs as the originals but use different capacitors and (2) have third party tweeter diaphragms is a modified Heresy II.  It's modified with some third party components.  But it's too much to say that the speakers themselves ain't Klipsch anymore.  In my opinion.  Of course this is all a matter of opinion and a question of line drawing.

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1 minute ago, billybob said:

One could however call it a modified Klipsch or a custom Klipsch design which would take Klipsch off the hook, if they were even on one in the first place. A simple deduction.

Precisely!

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What I find very pleasing is that I agree with the thought in Islander's last post as much as I agree with your point, Mike, regarding Klipsch's claim to authenticity. I realize that only Klipsch can make customized measures so that it is still original Klipsch.

 

But someone can personalize their Klipsch in my view without the speakers becoming complete outlaws and no longer being allowed to be called Klipsch. They are modified and no longer original sounding, I know, but they are still basically Klipsch speakers.

It may also be a question of era and basic construction. No one questioned the originality of the Jubilees when they were relatively new. Many of us experimented with different drivers, different DSP, different settings. I have K69, TAD 4002 and passive with Bob Crites Xover with Faital HF 200 in the collection. There were at least four or five more drivers tried by other people. Some people have three ways, many like me have two ways.
It was never in the case of the Jubilees that someone said, you must not do this or that, so that it is still original Klipsch.

I know it's different when a passive speaker has left the factory as a complete product. But as I said, let's accept both sides, and also yes, that a modification not intended by Klipsch can erase the original status. But many modifiers do take care that the original status can be restored at least reversibly.
Personally, I'm on my honeymoon with the refreshed and almost original status of my old LaScala.

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1 hour ago, Bulkogi said:

I have followed everyone's responses with interest and, as is often the case, the topic has gone outside of my original questions.  That's fine with me.  Interesting debates are interesting, including this one!

 

But, as a reminder, my original post was simply a list of four questions.  I was not advocating any of them, but simply trying to get some ideas on whether or not I should replace or re-cone the faded and dusty woofers in my 32 year old Heresy IIs.

 

For what it's worth, and based on the on-point advice in this thread, I have decided not to replace or re-cone the original woofers.  I am leaving them stock.  I've dusted them as best I can with a brush and am going to otherwise leave them as-is and declare the look to be "patina"!  😀

 

Now, moving beyond my original questions, because others have already:  

 

As I posted separately yesterday in my summary of the project, I did only two things to the speakers functionally:

 

1.  I had Crites replace the four original capacitors in the crossover networks with new Sonicap capacitors.  The rest of the crossovers are untouched.  I did that only because the original ones were 32 years old and I had noticed that the speakers sounded duller and were lacking some presence compared to when I bought them used in 2001.  In other words, I did that to bring them back to spec so that they would sound "as good as new."   Yes, the Sonicaps are polypropylene and the originals were electrolytic, but my understanding is that they have the exact same values and are not considered a sonic upgrade.  In any event, with the original tweeters, they now sound exactly as I remember them sounding when I bought them (at which point they were 12 years old).  I cannot solder and this service seemed to be the most logical available step.

 

2.  I did also purchase, and have installed for now, the Crites titanium diaphragms for the tweeters, which absolutely is a modification.  No question there.  But two things.  First, everything else about these speakers is still original.  Second, I can always put the phenolic diaphragms back into the tweeters (I am keeping them safe and sound).  So far the jury is out but I mostly enjoy the even more lively sound in my system.  If Klipsch still sells original phenolic diaphragms for these tweeters, I would certainly consider buying a pair.  But to me this is kind of like putting an Edelbrock carburetor and intake manifold on an old 289 mustang, and perhaps also a set of headers.  True, it's no longer bone stock original, but it's still a Ford, it's still a Mustang, and it's easily reversible.

 

It is correct to point out that my speakers are no longer original.  That is an objective fact.  But to say they are no longer Klipsch is not a fact; rather, it's an opinion and it's dogmatic.  It's ideology, a purity test, and a bucket of cold water, LOL.  YMMV, of course!

 

Bulkogi, I couldn't have put it into words any better (if I were a native speaker).
I see it exactly as you do. If you like it this way then you should be able to enjoy your Heresy wholeheartedly...without having to experience guilt or a guilty conscience or a bitter aftertaste.
It is a personal decision. My personal decision is that I swapped sonicaps for polyester caps and I just like the sound better. But I don't think I'm a better person because I prefer those capacitors that are closer to the original.

 

BTW - quite apart from the fundamental discussion - if you mean the capacitors that were originally on the xover of your Heresy from that era, then I don't think they are electrolytic types. If it's those Aerovox ones in the big metal cans, then it's polyester in oil. And today's polyester types without cooling oil, not used as motor run caps in air conditioners or washing machines have similar ESR as the old Aerovox.
Thus the xover as a whole retains the calculated total impedance. This is (from my point of view) technically more important than any "sound" of any capacitor. 

It has been a compelling rationale that led me to choose this capacitor type. Roy had explained the point with the total impedance some time ago in a post. 

 

 

I made this decision because I found it technically plausible. I was rewarded sonically. I didn't do it because I should give preference to originality for reasons that have nothing to do with sound in any case.
In this case, the sound I like goes hand in hand with originality.

 

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20 minutes ago, KT88 said:

 

Bulkogi, I couldn't have put it into words any better (if I were a native speaker).
I see it exactly as you do. If you like it this way then you should be able to enjoy your Heresy wholeheartedly...without having to experience guilt or a guilty conscience or a bitter aftertaste.
It is a personal decision. My personal decision is that I swapped sonicaps for polyester caps and I just like the sound better. But I don't think I'm a better person because I prefer those capacitors that are closer to the original.

 

BTW - quite apart from the fundamental discussion - if you mean the capacitors that were originally on the xover of your Heresy from that era, then I don't think they are electrolytic types. If it's those Aerovox ones in the big metal cans, then it's polyester in oil. And today's polyester types without cooling oil, not used as motor run caps in air conditioners or washing machines have similar ESR as the old Aerovox.
Thus the xover as a whole retains the calculated total impedance. This is (from my point of view) technically more important than any "sound" of any capacitor. 

It has been a compelling rationale that led me to choose this capacitor type. Roy had explained the point with the total impedance some time ago in a post. 

 

 

I made this decision because I found it technically plausible. I was rewarded sonically. I didn't do it because I should give preference to originality for reasons that have nothing to do with sound in any case.
In this case, the sound I like goes hand in hand with originality.

 

 

Thank you for your perspective KT88.  I certainly would not be able to tell that English isn't your first language!

 

And thank you for your clarification on the capacitors.  Attached are before and after pictures.  

 

IMG_2461.jpg

IMG_2513.jpg

Edited by Bulkogi
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Bulkogi, at least the big one indeed looks like an electrolytic capacitor. The original caps are different to those in my 1977 LaScala I was talking about. Anyway, enjoy your speakers and the customizations made👍

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6 hours ago, billybob said:

 call it a modified Klipsch or a custom Klipsch design which would take Klipsch off the hook,

 

NOPE - you can  join  a  DIY FORUM and call it a modified Klipsch or a custom Klipsch design , no one will care , but  on the klipsch forum  ,you can't  unless you have the express permission of Klipsch -

 

 

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Bought a pair of Heresy I's, for $400. Everyone said I needed to replace the capacitors, when I saw the price of capacitors I just bought Crites replacement crossovers. But I kept wondering if I needed new tweeters, so I bought replacement tweeters. I loved the better sound so I bought new midranges and woofers as well. Wow! I next decided to brace the enclosure, but by the time I had installed all the braces I realized that I had reduced the volume of the boxes. I made new larger boxes and matching motor board, to compensate for the reduced volume caused by the bracing. While I was at it I ported the back. My Heresy I's sound great now! I do not see why Klipsch had to mess around with the II's, III's and IV's!

 

Not really. I bought a pair of Heresy I's without grill cloth. I replaced the grill cloth (from Crites) and added nice banana jacks. While the backs were off to install the banana jacks I looked around and everything looked great, no signs of distress. Sorry for the long and untruthful lead in. 😀

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14 minutes ago, veloceleste said:

.What do you do when you’re unbranded and you’re a speaker……

 

 

So they remove your top-hat, strip you of your magnets, and break your horn in half?

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I have curves comparing a new ALK Universal to a 30 year old type AA. The measuring was done using the Klipsch anechoic chamber, and the curves have had no smoothing applied. I also have transfer function curves of a stock RF-7 to one of my early modified RF-7 builds. I was asked never to post them, but ... grrr 

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On my bicycle, I changed the gears and the saddle and adjusted the seat and handlebar heights, added a blinky light.

 

On my motorcycle, I added a custom Corbin seat (I'm 6'4" tall) and stainless brake lines, changed the tires and the brake pads.

 

In my car, I modified the seat bracket (I'm 6'4" tall), adjusted the mirrors, added a Garmin navigator and a dashcam. (Sorry, no fuzzy dice.)

 

Am I no longer a bicyclist, motorcyclist, or driver?

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When I look at this issue from Roy’s point of view, things seem a bit different.  He works for years on a speaker, and releases it only when he feels that’s it’s the best it can be, using current technology and within cost and construction constraints. Great!  Then some owners start posting that that speaker is pretty good, but after I replaced X or Y, now it sounded really good.  What!?!

 

You can see how he could feel just a bit offended.

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7 minutes ago, Islander said:

When I look at this issue from Roy’s point of view, things seem a bit different.  He works for years on a speaker, and releases it only when he feels that’s it’s the best it can be, using current technology and within cost and construction constraints. Great!  Then some owners start posting that that speaker is pretty good, but after I replaced X or Y, now it sounded really good.  What!?!

 

You can see how he could feel just a bit offended.

 

I understand. But I've also been in his position, and said to myself, "If only I could add $X to the bill of materials, this could be so much better." Some purchasers are willing to tolerate that extra bit of expense, but they have to do it themselves. And their willingness doesn't extend to enough of the customer base to justify doing it at the factory. Remember that every $1 in the bill of materials becomes somewhere between $5 and $10 in the retail price.

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