Elliptrac horn

[Ol_mcdonald]

3 hours ago, Langston said:

 

 The DE750 has got to be one of the easiest compression drivers in the world to EQ. I know you're after a 3-way system, but I'm after a 2-way and this may be the end game.

Now you’ve got me thinking…it would be considerably easier, just build a new motorboard for my existing upper cabinet. Nothing ventured, nothing gained! If I don’t like it I can still build a new cabinet for the MF/HF.

 

Do you plan on using DSP and bi amping your future two way setup? That’s the way I will go to test drive it if I go that way and I am so inclined.

[Wirrunna]

1 hour ago, Ol_mcdonald said:

Now you’ve got me thinking…it would be considerably easier, just build a new motorboard for my existing upper cabinet. Nothing ventured, nothing gained! If I don’t like it I can still build a new cabinet for the MF/HF.

 

Do you plan on using DSP and bi amping your future two way setup? That’s the way I will go to test drive it if I go that way and I am so inclined.

 

After building my Eliptrac horns I built a new motorboard including Dave Harris Eliptrac tweeter lens.

Then when I bought the second hand B&C DCX464s on a whim I left the tweeter lens installed and then ventured down the DSP path after being unsatisfied with passive crossovers.

At this stage I haven't completed the grill, the new motorboards are sitting in the K-horn top hats. I plan to build a ply frame like the latest K-Horn rather than wrapping the grill cloth around the motorboard and stapling. I'll use velcro to hold the grill frame to the motorboard.

 

[Ol_mcdonald]

On 6/24/2021 at 2:31 AM, Wirrunna said:

What is your bass bin ?

Are you going active crossover or sticking with passive ?

 

There are new B&C drivers, the DCX464 and DCX462, I have a pair of the DCX464s on  a pair of Eminence 1.4 to 2" adapters on my Eliptrac horns with active crossovers.

 

https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/coaxials-hf

 

 

So I was looking at the DCX 462 (2”) drivers, they list a crossover for use with the 464 but not the 462. In the description of the ME464 it does not mention the DCX 462. Does it use the same ME 464 crossover? It’s certainly an interesting driver, and a spendy one too. Your talking about nearly $2000.00 with crossovers. 

[Langston]

4 hours ago, Ol_mcdonald said:

I was looking at the DCX 462 (2”) drivers, they list a crossover for use with the 464 but not the 462.

 

Actually B&C does mention it at the bottom of the crossover page. Both drivers are approved for this mid/high passive crossover as long as they are the 8Ω models and use the ME464 horn. It's my guess that you can remove the 1.4 to 2 inch adapter built into the DCX462 to fit a 1.4 inch horn such as the ME464. I love to hear from someone that's done this successfully.

 

Passive crossovers have to deal with both the acoustic output and variable impedance of the driver/horn system, thus it's very likely you'll want to modify component values a bit with a different horn, such as the Tractrix. If you are just getting started with loudspeaker design this is a deep (and as you mentioned, expensive) pool to begin with. : )

 

If I find the DCX464 is the end game driver for my Klipschorns, it's likely I'll cross the mid/highs passively and biamp between low/mid. I hope I can cross the low/mid passively without audible compromise, but I'm bettin' against it.

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

[Deang]

The Klipschorn falls like a rock after 350Hz. Why are we suggesting midrange drivers that don't turn on until 500Hz?

[Langston]

On 6/25/2021 at 2:02 PM, Deang said:

The Klipschorn falls like a rock after 350Hz.

 

With my Khorns the raw response drops above 500Hz (pink trace). This is an outdoor reflection-free measurement using a false wall per Dope From Hope. The green trace is an acoustic 6th order LR low pass, down 6dB at 400Hz. Though the DE750/Tractrix is comfortable with a mirror alignment at 400Hz, I chose 500Hz because I'm running the HF passband about 7dB lower than the bass per my taste. Actually 2dB acoustically, the 7dB was the electrical HF reduction required to achieve this.

 

 

The bass skirt of course widens as you go down, so I prefer increasing the HP cross frequency to maintain overlap per the LR design, which results in its superior polar response (coherent forward lobe with nulls toward floor and ceiling). IOW, it sounds cleaner.

 

Cranky! : )

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

 

PS: Rane Note 160

 

[Deang]

I know if you chop off the peaks and drag it all down, you can get a fairly smooth transition at 400.

 

Klipsch anechoic response attached.

khornlf1.pdf

[Langston]

42 minutes ago, Deang said:

Klipsch anechoic response attached.

 

I see your 350Hz point! Please give me everything else you have or I'll, I'll.. err. Please! : )

[Ol_mcdonald]

7 hours ago, Deang said:

The Klipschorn falls like a rock after 350Hz. Why are we suggesting midrange drivers that don't turn on until 500Hz?

 

The specs of the DCX426 claims a range of 300hz`-18khz.

[Deang]

Yes. Nice driver. But ... You have a 2” horn and that’s a 1 1/4” driver. It’s also a coaxial. You’ve got your work cut out for you. 

[Dave A]

10 hours ago, Langston said:

Actually B&C does mention it at the bottom of the crossover page. Both drivers are approved for this mid/high passive crossover as long as they are the 8Ω models and use the ME464 horn. It's my guess that you can remove the 1.4 to 2 inch adapter built into the DCX462 to fit a 1.4 inch horn such as the ME464. I love to hear from someone that's done this successfully.

I tried this with a DE1095 neo driver and the holes did not line up for the 1.4" driver without the 2"adapter to standard horn hole patterns. It has been a while since I did this but there was something there that made me stop considering it.

 

  The ME464 horn is hugely different than the elliptrac in your K-horn. So first off it is a waste of money to buy that driver and cripple it with a horn it will not excell in. Second the claimed frequency range and low 300hz crossover point can only be achieved by the use of the B&C coax driver and the ME464 horn. Now I would think the B&C crossover might not be required to do this if you went active but you still need that ME464 horn or perhaps a K-402 would do. The crossovers can also be 16ohm rated and considering the prodigious output these are capable of you are better off using the 16ohm drivers so you wont have to attenuate them so much.

 

  I have a set of these but when I get around to trying them out it will be on my Super MWM bass bin set or a set of the 415/4 LF bass bins I have. I have tried a set of the DE-1095's on those four 15" woofer 415/4 LF bass bins and they completely overwhelmed them without setting the gain back.

 

 Really great drivers and such a complete mismatch for your intended purpose that I fear you would be really really unhappy if you insist on doing this. Save your money and look into something like the Faital HF 200. Testing the Faital Pro HF200 driver on the Eliptrac400 - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community

[Langston]

Very helpful info @Dave A, thank you. I bought the DCX464 instead of the DCX462 because I was pretty convinced that the 2 inch Tractrix horn wouldn't work as well as the 1.4 inch ME464 horn that B&C designed specifically for the driver. Tonight I triamped (it's so much easier to go fully active when experimenting) the DCX464/ME464/Khorn. 6th order acoustic LR crosses at 500Hz and 4kHz and it was the first time another loudspeaker system approached the depth and accuracy of my highly modified '84 Martin Logan CLS system. The previous best Khorn mod was the DE750/Tractrix. I think a large part of the improved imaging is due to the large horn's superior pattern control (thus reduced boundary reflections). The sweet spot is much wider as well, though the Tractrix was great compared to head-vice electrostatics. : )

 

My guess is that the K-402 would be better still - I'd love to find a pair to purchase.

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

 

PS: Thanks for the link! You guys are so helpful. : )

 

Edit (2 days later)

1. I made two improvements on the DCX-ME464 combo, I reduced the mid/high cross to 3.8kHz, which reduced the required delay of the highs to almost zero (zero would have worked w/o issue) and reduced the EQ required for a smooth crossover. Secondly I reduced the lowpass frequency to 375Hz and the mid/high to 400Hz. I couldn't hear an improvement on the first change, it simply measures better. The second change made a dramatic improvement that makes me want to go down further to see if it would make things better still. The low end is tighter, a little warmer, more even throughout the room and apparently louder. "Apparently" because it isn't louder, my guess is that it's just working with the room better now that more of the low end is controlled by the big B&C horn. That horn is also responsible for the cleaner imaging due to fewer wall/ceiling reflections. I had to raise the mid/high passband 2dB to maintain balance with the bass output due to this change.

 

2. I then went back to the DE750/Tractrix combo again and tweaked its processing based on what I learned above and now prefer it again. My guess on this is that the Tractrix horn's lack of abrupt transitions is responsible for the better sound. I've worked on the early reflection room surfaces a bit to help given the smaller horn's inability to maintain pattern control very low. The big B&C horn measures better and has a larger sweet spot, but it just doesn't sound right even with FIR filtering. The DE750/Tractrix sounds extremely good even before FIR filtering. After FIR filtering it's so good that I'm actually happy with the loudspeakers! The horror! : )

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

[ClaudeJ1]

On 6/23/2021 at 10:06 PM, Edgar said:

 

Apologies for straying off-topic, but I've been trying for some time to find the price of GPA 399 drivers, with no luck. Evidently one has to call Bill Hanuschak directly, but I just haven't had time. Hoping you don't mind my asking, but how much did they cost?

GPA prices are ridiculous for new drivers of old technology. For that kind of money, you can have the same revolutionary Celestion driver that the Diamond Jubilee will be using. Time and technology marches on.

[Edgar]

31 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

GPA prices are ridiculous for new drivers of old technology. For that kind of money, you can have the same revolutionary Celestion driver that the Diamond Jubilee will be using. Time and technology marches on.

 

I need drivers to match the Altecs that I already have. 

[Ol_mcdonald]

11 hours ago, Deang said:

Yes. Nice driver. But ... You have a 2” horn and that’s a 1 1/4” driver. It’s also a coaxial. You’ve got your work cut out for you. 

I mis-typed...I meant the 462, 2". Do they even make a 426?? 🤣I Ive never been afraid of a little work...lol

[Ol_mcdonald]

9 hours ago, Dave A said:

I tried this with a DE1095 neo driver and the holes did not line up for the 1.4" driver without the 2"adapter to standard horn hole patterns. It has been a while since I did this but there was something there that made me stop considering it.

 

  The ME464 horn is hugely different than the elliptrac in your K-horn. So first off it is a waste of money to buy that driver and cripple it with a horn it will not excell in. Second the claimed frequency range and low 300hz crossover point can only be achieved by the use of the B&C coax driver and the ME464 horn. Now I would think the B&C crossover might not be required to do this if you went active but you still need that ME464 horn or perhaps a K-402 would do. The crossovers can also be 16ohm rated and considering the prodigious output these are capable of you are better off using the 16ohm drivers so you wont have to attenuate them so much.

 

  I have a set of these but when I get around to trying them out it will be on my Super MWM bass bin set or a set of the 415/4 LF bass bins I have. I have tried a set of the DE-1095's on those four 15" woofer 415/4 LF bass bins and they completely overwhelmed them without setting the gain back.

 

 Really great drivers and such a complete mismatch for your intended purpose that I fear you would be really really unhappy if you insist on doing this. Save your money and look into something like the Faital HF 200. Testing the Faital Pro HF200 driver on the Eliptrac400 - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community

 

I should have spoken to you first, thanks for the response! Dave Harris' horn piqued my DIY curiosity. Looks like its Faital Pro HF200 for me. Its an easy set up and easy to undo if I don't like the results. Stop by and check it out if you'd like next time your over this way. Checking part availability.😀 

[Dave A]

7 hours ago, Langston said:

My guess is that the K-402 would be better still - I'd love to find a pair to purchase.

 

 I have a set to try them on and will report on what I find some day. I am a big fan of 402's + 1132 drivers and they are on my personal system along with the current version phase plugs and new diaphragms. Very hard to find used 402's and since Klipsch will only sell you a complete horn and driver set getting a pair from them is not cheap. Neither are the DCX464 and ME464 combos from B&C and retail on both will be about the same I guess. B&C will however sell you just a horn or just a driver since they are not in the speaker business.

 

 At the end of the day regarding the 402's I have to say that the new phase plugs on the 1132 drivers was a huge step up over the old 1132 phase plugs. I have had both versions and if was given a choice to select either the cheaper used old style 402/1132 or the new current ones I would save my money for the new ones. I have no experience with the Celestions but as Claude says technology marches on and there is no way to beat these latest greatest versions.

[Dave A]

11 minutes ago, Ol_mcdonald said:

 

I should have spoken to you first, thanks for the response! Dave Harris' horn piqued my DIY curiosity. Looks like its Faital Pro HF200 for me. Its an easy set up and easy to undo if I don't like the results. Stop by and check it out if you'd like next time your over this way. Checking part availability.😀 

PM me your address and I will.

[ClaudeJ1]

9 hours ago, Langston said:

My guess is that the K-402 would be better still - I'd love to find a pair to purchase.

I'll let you know if I ever want to sell mine.

[Deang]

2 hours ago, Ol_mcdonald said:

I mis-typed...I meant the 462, 2". Do they even make a 426?? 🤣I Ive never been afraid of a little work...lol

I figured out the typo, but still ended up looking at the wrong driver!

 

I’m sure all of these different drivers sound great in an active set up, where you can dial everything in.