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miniDSP SHD Power & Hypex NC400 Class D Amps


Langston
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One of my audio projects has been trying to mate an integrated amp to a pair of bone stock, but perfectly operating Heresy II's for one of my sons. I'm into FIR convolution and thought I'd try out a miniDSP SHD Power unit that includes a bunch of great looking features, including an everyman's version of FIR filter generation.

 

The D/A measures very well as does the standard miniDSP processing. I haven't bothered with the "Dirac Live" FIR filter software yet because I'm having a horrible time with the amp section. All I wanted to do today was listen to it in a shootout with my Benchmark AHB2 to make sure it was acceptable. I don't expect anything near equivalence, but I can't even match gains with my DAC3/AHB2 amp combo because the output of this miniDSP Class D "amp" has so much garbage riding on top of the audio signal that it isn't possible to measure with precision.

 

So tomorrow I'll listen and try to match gains by ear to see if the amp, in spite of it's ultrasonic garbage, sounds good.

 

The following plots include comments. I'm sure this will be hard to tell*, but I'm wildly biased against Class D amps. They happened during my tenure in concert production and the companies that employed them for anything other than subs instantly cut the quality of their sound in half. To be optimistic. Great for subs though and cut those amp racks down by half or more, both in size and weight. At the end I include some old scope measurements of the Class D garbage out of these amps as well as some non-Class D's that I was considering for sub duty.

 

If this miniDSP amp is as bad sounding as it measures, I'll be looking for something else for these little Heresy's. Suggestions solicited, even Class D if you are convinced it sounds good and I can return it without hassle. Lots of web sites are saying Class D was "hard" and "flat" (an understatement), but now they're wonderful. I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath on it.

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

 

* sarcasm.

 

Frequency Domain

FFT.thumb.PNG.74ab55271291d7b95a0b8e48d9e8705c.PNG

 

Time Domain 1

1793446245_Scope1.thumb.PNG.e1dddea0763cd9ea8c73dc2c80930c2d.PNG

 

Time Domain 2

257076519_Scope2.thumb.PNG.f7844e10f98e1bbfc92634516c53ded0.PNG

 

Blast from the Class D past

963902295_AmpTest4ClassDNoise1.thumb.jpg.8ab13ecd35d06e498b30a9327bc48670.jpg

319203196_AmpTest4ClassDNoise2.thumb.jpg.fcf8e3106cb23730ac438a028ef47705.jpg

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Nelson Pass hasn't been very thrilled with any class D amplifiers that he's heard or tested.  I assume that includes the miniDSP class D products, as well as Hypex or any other brands. His comment was that it's the amount of negative feedback needed to linearize the output of class D amplifiers creates increasing amounts of higher order harmonics within the audible passband:  https://www.passlabs.com/technical_article/audio-distortion-and-feedback/

 

The noise above 20 kHz isn't audible to humans (loudspeakers really are bandpass devices), but the fact that it's there says that miniDSP's low-pass output filtering from this class D amplifier (of which all class D amplifiers need) doesn't actually function as it should to attenuate those way-above-audible frequencies. 

 

It's the overall schema of class D amplifiers requiring so much negative feedback that causes in-band higher order harmonic distortion that's the real problem, in my experience:

 

fig_10_distortion_spectrum_vs_feedback.p

 

I don't personally recommend class D if fidelity is one of your measures of merit.  I'd stick with class A or good class AB instead, and let the class D gravy train go its own way.  My experience with class D has been uniformly poor--even the "high brow class D" amplifiers that have come into vogue. 

 

Apparently there are a lot of loudspeaker/room combinations that mask the effects of class D harmonic distortion issues within the audible passband--and that's the only feasible explanation that I can find as to why there are class D enthusiasts around.  Using something like K-402s and time-aligned loudspeakers within listening rooms treated for early reflections--my experiences have been poor with class D, with strange tonal and soundstage distortions that are pretty audible.  YMMV.

 

Chris

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9 hours ago, Langston said:

Great for subs though and cut those amp racks down by half or more, both in size and weight.

 

I have several 3E Audio TPA3255 amps https://www.3e-audio.com/amplifier-kits/tpa3255-1ch-480w/ that I use exclusively for bass duty, where they perform superbly. I expect that the high voice coil inductance in typical woofers all but eliminates those ultrasonic components.

 

I've tried them for full-range, and immediately removed them from that duty -- they just didn't sound "right" to me.

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3 hours ago, Shiva said:

Here is a review  over at Audio Science Review in regards to the Class D Hypex nc400 amps modules.

 

It's been my observation that the guys over at ASR don't generally listen to full-range controlled directivity loudspeakers (i.e., fully horn loaded) that can easily make audible the issues related to the comments I made above.  His test report apparently is using measures that do not surface the issues with class D distortion that I raised, above.

 

When I discussed the sound quality issues with Mr. Pass last fall, I think he was a bit surprised that I could hear the difference in the Hypex modules so clearly.  I mentioned that they sounded about as poor as any that I've heard (overall sound quality and soundstage accuracy). 

 

I think he became a bit more interested in what I was listening to (i.e., Jubilees with TAD TD-4002s) such that I could clearly hear the problems of the Hypex class D modules.  "Golden ears" were clearly not required to hear what I described. 

 

YMMV.

 

Chris

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So, @Chris A, we have objective measurements that say the Hypex modules are superb, and real-world listening tests that say they aren't. Can we explain the difference?

 

It has always bothered me that Class-D amplifiers use a one-size-fits-all output filter to attenuate the ultrasonic switching noise. Real loudspeakers aren't perfect 4Ω resistances, and reactive loudspeaker impedances interact with those output filters in "interesting" ways. 

 

Real-world audio signals aren't constant-amplitude, constant-frequency sinewaves. You and I have devoted a lot of our discussions to transient fidelity, and perhaps at least part of the sound quality explanation lies there.

 

Once again, it all boils down to the fact that objective measurements are important, but listening is the final arbiter.

 

- Greg

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21 minutes ago, Edgar said:

So, @Chris A, we have objective measurements that say the Hypex modules are superb, and real-world listening tests that say they aren't. Can we explain the difference?...

Nelson Pass said he can.  Based on his track record, I believe him.  I've taken Mr. Pass's comments as ground truth.  However, that doesn't answer the apparent discrepancy in the tests performed in the ASR report and what Mr. Pass is saying. 

 

21 minutes ago, Edgar said:

...You and I have devoted a lot of our discussions to transient fidelity, and perhaps at least part of the sound quality explanation lies there...

I think that the difference in what I heard is at least greatly increased modulation distortion...and perhaps even more than that.

 

21 minutes ago, Edgar said:

...Once again, it all boils down to the fact that objective measurements are important, but listening is the final arbiter...

I think that there are measures that clearly show the difference (as NP has pointed out)...it's just that oftentimes when there is an apparent problem, only the listening tests catch the escapes due to not measuring the most important device characteristics that are not being performed well.  Modulation distortion seems to be one of those measures that almost no one does, but PWK said modulation distortion is probably the most important single measure that we can perform. 

 

It's not like we are completely unaware of this issue, and I believe it's pretty straightforward:

 

https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/feature-request-intermodulation-distortion-plots-a-la-klippel-am-and-fm-distortion.8120/

 

Chris

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5 minutes ago, Chris A said:

...it's just that oftentimes when there is an apparent problem, only the listening tests catch the escapes due to not measuring the most important device characteristics that are not being performed well. 

 

I used to have a sign on the wall by my desk that said:

 

"We have determined that Coke, Pepsi, and RC Cola all taste the same, because we measured them and found that they are all the same color."

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On 7/11/2021 at 8:16 AM, Shiva said:

Here is a review over at Audio Science Review in regards to the Class D Hypex nc400 amps modules.

 

Interesting. Striking similarities between my scope measurements of the miniDSP amp. The ASR guy has a $35k APx-555 with a 1MHz bandwidth. My APx-515 has a 96kHz bandwidth and measurement of devices with significant ultrasonic output can cause slew induced distortion in the analog input stages. This is a fact for the analog input of ANY analyzer that is exposed to high level signals or noise above its passband. Thus I use an external low-pass filter designed for these kinds of measurements when using the APx-515.

 

No need to bother with this external filter with my 200MHz scope, which is what I used to start this thread. ASR didn't need the external filter because his analyzer can handle the 450kHz slew, BUT he did engage a 40kHz AES-17 filter (internal option for all AP analyzers*) to suppress the ultrasonic garbage in his results as shown here. This is an 8th order filter, thus the ASR measurement of the ultrasonic noise is wildly understated. The use of the AES-17 filter for digital audio type measurement is like grading on a curve - it gives the garbage producers better results with the excuse that "nobody can hear that stuff anyway". Of course we can't hear it directly, but we do hear the flat/hard results that are likely the result of it through aliasing and/or other mechanisms.

 

I'm going to experiment with some of @Chris A 's IMD thoughts to see if I can coorelate an objective measurement to what we hear.

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

 

* The AES-17 filter cannot protect the analog input stages from slew based distortion, its only function is to low-pass audio measurements with significant out of band noise that is within the analog stage's slew limits so that standard distortion metrics behave as if the noise weren't there. In the old days they called this kind of thing cheating.

 

02 August Edit: After reading through many of the responses on ASR that follow the review, I figured out that the reviewer refers to his external 40kHz low pass filter between amp and analyzer as an "AES-17" filter. This is technically incorrect. Even Audio Precision refers to this "AUX-0040" as a "Switching Amplifier Measurement Filter" and nothing else. The AES-17 filters are internal to the analyzer and follow very different specifications per AES standards whereas the AUX-0040 is an AP product per their own specification. Thus when ASR mentions the AES-17 filter in connection to Class D amp reviews, it's a reference to the AUX-0040. Sorry for the confusion, but it doesn't affect our discussion.

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The miniDSP SHD Power amp outputs are bridged and non-inverting. As is typical with bridged amps, it struggles a bit with 4Ω loads. There are two processing modules included, the standard miniDSP stuff which is quite competent and the Dirac Live module that only accepts FIR convolution files generated by the Dirac Live software.

 

It's a shame that you can't upload your own FIR files to this thing because I can do a heck of a lot better than their blind/automated routine. I'm impressed they tried to make inverse filtering available to everyone, but it's a mess unless your loudspeakers and room are so good they could do without it.

 

My overall opinion is that the unit is excellent except for its Class D amp. Thus I recommend the SHD processor without the amp if you want to play with the Dirac Live software.

The intrinsic delay on this thing (digital in to amp out) is ridiculous, but fine for most home audio applications. Digital in is asynchronous, internal processing and digital outputs are fixed at 96k.

 

Delay at 48k SR is 25.27ms
Delay at 96k SR is 24.71ms

 

IMO, the sound is transparent through the processing modules, but the amp set a new record for awful. I apparently have obtained @Chris A 's "golden ears" (due to my modified Klipschorns). This is yet another Class D failure for me. Flat, dull and even irritating. The SHB Power amp changed the character of the music from involving to boring. The representation of the recording environment was gone. Instrument and vocal placement were correct but flat. I didn't want to listen to it after a couple of minutes.

 

I spent about 10 hours trying to find a measurement method that made sense as to why this thing sounded so bad, but I failed. Everything was consistently an order of magnitude (10x) or more worse than the Benchmark DAC/amp combo, so nothing in particular caught my eye as an "Ah Ha!" measurement. I still think the >20kHz garbage holds the answer, but somebody smarter than me will have to unravel it.

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

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19 hours ago, Langston said:

....I apparently have obtained @Chris A 's "golden ears" (due to my modified Klipschorns)...

I just wanted to comment so that casual readers don't think that I really do have "golden ears".  If ever accused of having golden ears, in my own defense...I apparently use my ears to hear things that some people choose not to hear (along with the many other things that others do choose to hear).  Mostly I listen for things heard at live concerts in acoustically good venues during the performance of mostly non-amplified instruments and voices.  There are actually many genres of music that make use of this type of quality (but typically not from popular music radio stations or even streaming music services). 

 

By that, I mean that I'm listening to the reverberation trails of the recording space--and from different directions of arrival (in the case of 5.1 recordings) and try to compare the sound quality to the real thing, i.e., live performance using acoustic-only instrumentation that's been imprinted in aural memory of real performances...

 

606f4529ecd1b.image.jpg?crop=1786,852,1,

 

segovia_guitar.jpg

 

DSC_1089.jpg

 

maxresdefault.jpg

 

kindofblue_session.jpg

 

I find that many people apparently don't put much value into this type of sound quality for their sound reproduction systems and their recordings.  For me, this is a major factor in how I decide the difference between "okay" sound reproduction and "real hi-fi".  A sound reproduction system that cannot reproduce this type of musical experience well is, to me, not really hi-fi--although it may be enjoyable. Note that all other genres of music can be played on a hi-fi system, but it's the acoustic music with a sense of acoustic space that generally sets the standard for reproduced sound quality--in my experience.

 

It's a bit odd that I repeatedly have to explain this: that the concept of "hi-fi" is apparently not uniformly understood in today's sound reproduction marketplace...that people don't measure the quality of their sound reproduction by the quality of reproducing recordings that are usually the most difficult to record and reproduce well in their personal listening space.  (This was also PWK's definition of "hi-fi", I believe.)

 

While this is an apparent difference in my listening style from others, note that I too listen for other qualities of sound reproduction--that I haven't yet described here. So this "feeling of acoustic space" quality isn't the only difference that I listen for.  I also listen to many other different aspects of sound quality in sound reproduction. But it's the ability to reproduce a sense of acoustic space with natural recordings that were not built on a mixing board or in a computer, but rather captured as the musicians play together at the same time in the same acoustic space--simultaneously--that separates sound reproduction systems in terms of their sound quality, in my experience.  It includes the listening room and the integration of the components together.

 

Chris

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The golden ears thing was definitely a joke, particularly for myself. I was just attempting to draw attention to what many here experienced before I did - an electroacoustic transduction system with the capability of bridging those two domains with very little loss. So little loss that sonic differences between amplifiers isn't an item of debate for me anymore, as this thread indicates. My hearing is nothing like it was decades ago, but I'm now listening to my music collection with a sense of "I've never really heard this before". I hear page turning on music stands and musician coughs that I never knew were there. Some albums are not making it through this, others are so much better than I knew I'm kicking myself for not turning my attention to home audio earlier. Now I'm rarely able to listen to portions of songs while doing subjective testing - I get involved and forget what I'm doing. It's wonderful. : )

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

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This is a somewhat disturbing thread, due to the fact that I do own 6 MiniDSP PWR-ICE-125 plate-amps! I bought them some years ago, before I found Klipsch Community and the K 402 MEH, to build a traditionally 3 way loudspeaker.

 

Well as is, I do not have any issues with the sound of the DSP processor and the ICE-Power class D amplifier, as my system only consists of a woofer and a fullrange-driver (Visaton B200). The little AMT driver is not connected yet, and the crossower´s are not really optimised. So I have not heard the plate-amp on a dedicated high-frequency device like my AMT-tweeter. But I am a bit nervous that I will hear some of, what is described in this threat! By the way, as I do have six plate-amps, I use them in bridged mode, to supres some hum.

 

BUT now to the first big question that has been haunting me for a while: Will It be possible/listenable to use an AXI2050 in a K402-like horn with an ICE-POWER amp??????? I have an idea of substituting the ICE-POWER amp with a little german DIY class A amp that is inspired by the Aleph 0 amp by Nelson Pass ( https://www.buscher-endstufen.de/produkte/se-12/ ) and keep the dsp-module.

 

Next question: I know that you Chris use D75 amps for your woofers. Do you think it would be "safe" to use an ICE-Power amp for woofer-duties, or would you also say go for class A for the woofers in the MEH? Then mister Buscher also has a SE25 class A amp (25 W 4 ohm), that I could substitute.

 

I thought this was the right place to ask. Thank you in advance.

 

Regards

 

Steffen

 

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3 hours ago, Supersteff said:

I know that you Chris use D75 amps for your woofers. Do you think it would be "safe" to use an ICE-Power amp for woofer-duties

No problem at all.

 

3 hours ago, Supersteff said:

This is a somewhat disturbing thread, due to the fact that I do own 6 MiniDSP PWR-ICE-125 plate-amps! I bought them some years ago, before I found Klipsch Community and the K 402 MEH, to build a traditionally 3 way loudspeaker.

If there is anything that I've found with miniDSP, you have to talk about specific miniDSP products--it's not a monolithic "good" vs. "bad".

 

In the case of the miniDSP 2x4--this DSP crossover has noted gain and noise issues, while the 2x4 HD is a very good product, especially considering its price.  So before you change anything, listen to them with your new loudspeakers (whenever that occurs).  Then try out different amplifiers to hear any differences. At that point, you'll know. 

 

Chris

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  • 2 weeks later...

Postscript

After the miniDSP SHD Power fail, I decided to build a couple of diyAudio ACA amp kits for the Heresy II's, which is largely @Chris A 's fault for thinking so highly of the designer. Using one per channel in parallel mode sounds wonderful - I'm thrilled. You do have to feed them with enough voltage to drive the little amps' to their max (10dB gain), but that proved easy enough by wiring pin-2 and pin-1 of the balanced outs of a DAC2 HGC to the unbalanced amp inputs. The unbalanced RCA outputs of the DAC2 didn't produce enough voltage swing to get the desired volume with some uncompressed recordings.

 

And then I decided to take a final step into the Dark Side (a.k.a. Class D amplifiers) before calling it quits, and this is largely @ClaudeJ1 's fault for thinking so highly of the Hypex NC400 mono amp kits. A pair of them are due to me Thursday and they'll hit the bench Friday and I'll listen Saturday. Probably. If they don't work out, I'm going to make him swap his K-402's for them! : )

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

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52 minutes ago, Langston said:

And then I decided to take a final step into the Dark Side (a.k.a. Class D amplifiers) before calling it quits, and this is largely @ClaudeJ1 's fault for thinking so highly of the Hypex NC400 mono amp kits. A pair of them are due to me Thursday and they'll hit the bench Friday and I'll listen Saturday. Probably. If they don't work out, I'm going to make him swap his K-402's for them! : )

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

You might end up with a deal or great sound. Either way, you win.

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This is a somewhat disturbing thread, due to the fact that I do own 6 MiniDSP PWR-ICE-125 plate-amps! I bought them some years ago, before I found Klipsch Community and the K 402 MEH, to build a traditionally 3 way loudspeaker.
 
Well as is, I do not have any issues with the sound of the DSP processor and the ICE-Power class D amplifier, as my system only consists of a woofer and a fullrange-driver (Visaton B200). The little AMT driver is not connected yet, and the crossower´s are not really optimised. So I have not heard the plate-amp on a dedicated high-frequency device like my AMT-tweeter. But I am a bit nervous that I will hear some of, what is described in this threat! By the way, as I do have six plate-amps, I use them in bridged mode, to supres some hum.
 
BUT now to the first big question that has been haunting me for a while: Will It be possible/listenable to use an AXI2050 in a K402-like horn with an ICE-POWER amp??????? I have an idea of substituting the ICE-POWER amp with a little german DIY class A amp that is inspired by the Aleph 0 amp by Nelson Pass ( https://www.buscher-endstufen.de/produkte/se-12/ ) and keep the dsp-module.
 
Next question: I know that you Chris use D75 amps for your woofers. Do you think it would be "safe" to use an ICE-Power amp for woofer-duties, or would you also say go for class A for the woofers in the MEH? Then mister Buscher also has a SE25 class A amp (25 W 4 ohm), that I could substitute.
 
I thought this was the right place to ask. Thank you in advance.
 
Regards
 
Steffen
 
I use the Icepower asx125btl amps for my MEH woofers...sound fine to me.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

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20 hours ago, Langston said:

Postscript

After the miniDSP SHD Power fail, I decided to build a couple of diyAudio ACA amp kits for the Heresy II's, which is largely @Chris A 's fault for thinking so highly of the designer. Using one per channel in parallel mode sounds wonderful - I'm thrilled. You do have to feed them with enough voltage to drive the little amps' to their max (10dB gain), but that proved easy enough by wiring pin-2 and pin-1 of the balanced outs of a DAC2 HGC to the unbalanced amp inputs. The unbalanced RCA outputs of the DAC2 didn't produce enough voltage swing to get the desired volume with some uncompressed recordings.

 

And then I decided to take a final step into the Dark Side (a.k.a. Class D amplifiers) before calling it quits, and this is largely @ClaudeJ1 's fault for thinking so highly of the Hypex NC400 mono amp kits. A pair of them are due to me Thursday and they'll hit the bench Friday and I'll listen Saturday. Probably. If they don't work out, I'm going to make him swap his K-402's for them! : )

 

God bless you and your precious family - Langston

Basically, the NC-400 is the Easiest Kit you will ever build, guaranteed. Then when you compare the sound of it's First Watt to a Real First Watt Amplifier (Pass Class A) on HORNS, you will realize that your have the same Sound Quality as the Class A, without the built in "space heater" of Class A.

 

FYI, I never shut of my NC-400's, only the Pre Pro, CD player and 4K Blue Ray/4K OLED are shut off. Same is true for the subwoofer power amps, and the TI Chip Amps I use for the surround channels, their Quiescent Current wouldn't even charge my iPhone, so they are on too.

 

The Hypex is like Class A sound quality with Seemingly Unlimited Headroom with HORNS, which I only come close to "using up" on my demo drum recording that hits 124 db peaks!!

 

One word of caution that I mentioned before with the Hypex and other amps with no gain controls:

It bears repeating, with Horn Speakers, you need to attenuate the drive Voltage from your preamp with Potentiometers.

 

The Extreme Sensitivity of Horns requires lowering the always Too High Voltage gain of all High Power Amplifiers, and FORCE the Pre Amp or Pre Pro to put out a much higher Voltage Swing for Audio.

 

Remember that all Signal to Noise ratios of Power Amps are measured and REFERENCED TO full output, way above the noise floor. You'll thank me later for this technical tidbit!

 

This is what I use on my NC-400. I have several of these. Worth every penny!!!

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253180664213?hash=item3af2be5995:g:6sgAAOSwzExgZTkA

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On 8/3/2021 at 1:06 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

One word of caution that I mentioned before with the Hypex and other amps with no gain controls:

It bears repeating, with Horn Speakers, you need to attenuate the drive Voltage from your preamp with Potentiometers.

 

The Extreme Sensitivity of Horns requires lowering the always Too High Voltage gain of all High Power Amplifiers, and FORCE the Pre Amp or Pre Pro to put out a much higher Voltage Swing for Audio.

 

Remember that all Signal to Noise ratios of Power Amps are measured and REFERENCED TO full output, way above the noise floor. You'll thank me later for this technical tidbit!

 

This is what I use on my NC-400. I have several of these. Worth every penny!!!

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253180664213?hash=item3af2be5995:g:6sgAAOSwzExgZTkA


After all these years I guess I still don’t understand how this works. I don’t see how attenuating the preamp processor output into the high powered amps gets the amps any higher above the noise floor.  It certainly doesn’t drive them closer to full output where their specs measure best.  For that we would have to attenuate the amp output between the amp and speaker.

 

I guess what you’re driving at and I know is true from personal experience is that it’s better for lowering overall system noise to have the preamp/processor swing a wider voltage range. Getting THAT device into its low noise range.

 

I also know from personal experience that it’s very handy with biamped and triamped active systems to  have a gain  control on the amps for gain balancing.

 

I agree that the NC 400 kits are super easy!  No soldering!

 

I use mine on my DTS 10 subs but Claude you’ve got me curious to find out if their first watt is as good as my FirstWatt SIT2 😸

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