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Klipschorn AK-3 horn mods


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On 7/22/2021 at 7:34 PM, babadono said:

For clarification. You are using an active crossover to bi amp. The crossover is at 1000Hz? Then you are allowing the passive crossover for the bass bin to further low pass the signal to the woofer down to 400Hz? Then what about the high pass to the squawker/tweeter is it also at 1000Hz? If this is true you have a band from 400 to 1000Hz not being reproduced.

Maybe I am not following what you are doing correctly.

 

One of the main advantages of using an active crossover and then bi or tri amping is to get the reactive components of the passive crossover and their phase shifts out of the signal path.

 

With the Active DSP that I currently have, and I've only had it a week now and am not sold on it, it is easy to change the crossover points and slopes. I am only bi-amping. So the upper speaker level signal is getting split by the AK-3 passive xover. I could eliminate this xover altogether if I tri-amped. I think I have the amp to do this. But I would have to upgrade my Active DSP to split the signal 3 ways.

Now on to the bass passive crossover. Ive got a direct signal from the bass amp to the woofer, but I still have the crossover also hooked to the woofer on the original connector connectors. The strait wire is connected to the second set of tabs on the woofer. The woofer has 4 connectors on it. 2 were originally connected to the Klipsch crossover. I left them in tact and connected my own 2 wires to the previously empty set of tabs. The thinking for leaving the original connections is that I could switch back to the connections on the back of the klipschhorn box where the 2 original bass bin banana connectors are from two new bass bin connectors I added to the back / side of the the speaker so that a person could conveniently switch between a previously filtered signal back to an unfiltered signal and go back to the original bass crossover easily. The user just needs to connect only one bass bin at a time and make sure they correct the right one. But they would never have to unscrew the side/back panel to gain access and rewire the connections to and from the driver and the passive crossover inside.

My question about this is if what I have done by keeping the passive xover connected to the driver only but not sending a signal through the driver from the outside, would this harm the passive crossover in any manner?  Is my direct connection to the woofer going to also by passed in the opposite direction through the passive crossover and cause harm since I did not connect it from the driver?  I don't have enough knowledge of electronics to know one way or the other and I didn't think about it until after I connected and tested on one speaker.

My next question is about the AK-3 crossover settings and your questioning if I might be missing an entire range of frequencies from 400 to 1000khz. The shot answer is I should not be as I set them with overlap. But what are the recommended / factory xover settings for the AK-3?  Preliminarily, I set mine by ear. I know this is faulty, but I set it up with overlap between the bass and midrange/highs.  So what are the settings that Klipsch uses? And for tweekers, what do they set them at for all 3 pieces?  The reason why I ask about all three is I think you may be correct that it best to just tri-amp and eliminate the old klipsch Ak-3 altogether.  They are 30 years old. I have not tested them. But if they were not 100%, it would be less expensive to upgrade from 2 way active DSP to 3 way active DSP than to purchase replacement crossovers. Replacing just the caps is much less expensive but I do not have the soldering experience working with boards to feel confident on doing that. Anyway, if you or anyone has any information on all three crossover specs, I'd appreciate it.

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On 7/22/2021 at 9:54 PM, Fast996 said:

That means Khorns are room dependent.

Your room is similar in size to mine. I really have no choice but to leave mine placed in the location where they are in the 2 front corners. I'm trying to make them sound as good as they can in this room exactly where they are.  When I had my cornwalls in this room, I felt no need to make any mods to them. The KH's definitely added a lot over the CW's but they really added to much. It would be like going from a mustang that you love to a Maserati that you love more but can't quite tame for your driving skills. 

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40 minutes ago, DVDMike said:

The KH's definitely added a lot over the CW's

the caps in your XO may be out of spec  - you can verify the ESR leakage with an ESR Meter -

VIP   --you may want to check the  clear Monster Speaker wires  of the AK-3  XO ,  for corrosion -

 

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33 minutes ago, DVDMike said:

So the upper speaker level signal is getting split by the AK-3 passive xover.

 

I assume you are sending the full signal to the top hat crossover and not the high pass from your DSP???

 

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38 minutes ago, mboxler said:

I assume you are sending the full signal to the top hat crossover and not the high pass from your DSP???

No, the dsp is splitting into 2 ranges, lows and everything else with some overlap.

 

I can easily change this frequency in real time, solo both or just one channel with and without the bass. I’ve tested sending the full frequencies to to high ak3 and I cannot hear a difference. testing equipment might. But I cannot hear it. So for now I’ve pre cut out the low frequencies before the amplified signal goes to the ak3 upper crossover. 
 

why am I sending a cut signal only to be split into 2 by the passive ak3? Because I was told, read it several places, that it puts less strain on your amplifier if you remove frequencies you know you don’t need in the path later. I think this was even mentioned the pinned thread here about bi-amping. Your assumption that I was sending a full signal into the upper crossover makes me believe that what I’ve read and am doing might be the wrong thing? 

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52 minutes ago, RandyH said:

you may want to check the  clear Monster Speaker wires  of the AK-3  XO ,  for corrosion

I can do this. I’ve really been just making the physical mods to the right speaker because it’s easier to access. I looked at it the lower crossover and didn’t see any corrosion of it or of the upper one on the right speaker. I didn’t see any obvious signs of leaking or bloating on the caps either. But they have NOT been tested. I’m trying to borrow a meter. But no one has one. So I might just have buy one.

 

Do you happen to know of any klipsch documentation on what the in-spec values should read for ak3’s should find a meter to test? I’ve searched online before and came up empty. 

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21 minutes ago, DVDMike said:

No, the dsp is splitting into 2 ranges, lows and everything else with some overlap.

 

I can easily change this frequency in real time, solo both or just one channel with and without the bass. I’ve tested sending the full frequencies to to high ak3 and I cannot hear a difference. testing equipment might. But I cannot hear it. So for now I’ve pre cut out the low frequencies before the amplified signal goes to the ak3 upper crossover. 
 

why am I sending a cut signal only to be split into 2 by the passive ak3? Because I was told, read it several places, that it puts less strain on your amplifier if you remove frequencies you know you don’t need in the path later. I think this was even mentioned the pinned thread here about bi-amping. Your assumption that I was sending a full signal into the upper crossover makes me believe that what I’ve read and am doing might be the wrong thing? 

 

I guess I should have asked what the high pass frequency is from the DSP.  If it's low enough, and the slope is steep enough, you won't notice a difference.

 

Sorry about that.

 

I have a pair of ALK ES5800t crossovers in the Garage Sale that would replace the ALK-3 top hat section and give you more control over the high pass

signal to the squawker/tweeter.

 

Mike

 

Mike

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48 minutes ago, DVDMike said:

 I didn’t see any obvious signs of leaking or bloating on the caps either. But they have NOT been tested. I’m trying to borrow a meter. But no one has one. So I might just have buy one.

 

 

Do you happen to know of any klipsch documentation on what the in-spec values

an ESR meter can  measure the ESR   " leakage  "  or loss

 

https://community.klipsch.com/uploads/monthly_2018_10/172800278_AK-3schematic1.jpg.58882c3731c26fb5f6ca43bb6d712fda.jpg

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8 hours ago, DVDMike said:

Your room is similar in size to mine. I really have no choice but to leave mine placed in the location where they are in the 2 front corners. I'm trying to make them sound as good as they can in this room exactly where they are.  When I had my cornwalls in this room, I felt no need to make any mods to them. The KH's definitely added a lot over the CW's but they really added to much. It would be like going from a mustang that you love to a Maserati that you love more but can't quite tame for your driving skills. 

Iirc the ak3 crossovers use 3 2uf caps per channel. I would replace those and see if that makes a positive difference. That's where I would start...good luck.

 

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The AK2 crossover uses 2- 2 uf caps on the upper half of the passive crossover and the AK3 uses 3 2uf caps. Consensus is the AK3 > AK2 . Can anybody tell me the purpose and effect should be by adding a extra 2uf cap?

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Posted (edited)
On 7/22/2021 at 11:25 AM, Chris A said:

If you're using a DSP crossover (i.e., not an active analog crossover), try inserting ~6.5 ms of delay on the tweeter channels, and ~4.8 ms delay on the midrange channels (assuming tri-amping).  Then you'll correct the timbre shifts due to time misalignments of the horn-drivers, which are part of your 'bright and harsh' sound.

I found out that my current 2 by 4 miniDSP DOES have delay adjustments per driver available! If I were to go to the next model up, the 4 x 10, I can crossover all 3 drivers in the active dsp and have EQ and delay per driver. 
 

earlier I incorrectly responded it did NOT have delay abilities. In fact it allows for up to 9ms. 

Edited by DVDMike
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After adding a delay, things started sounding better to my ears. Then I made some crossover changes in the dsp. Then I tweaked some EQ settings and things are sounding much better for my setup. I’ve listened to a variety of 2 channel music, then I listened to some atmos music. That seems to be sounding exceptionally good. Things are looking up.

 

thanks everyone for the ideas and such.

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On 7/24/2021 at 8:37 PM, RandyH said:

an ESR meter can  measure the ESR   " leakage  "  or loss


I received my esr meter and learned how to use it. But after getting into the AK-3 crossover, it seems impossible to be able to test without cutting and stripping wires and resoldering. Klipsch seems to have the wiring to from the caps sealed up pretty good, making it difficult / impossible to make a connection for testing as is.
 

 

Everything than can be soldered appears to be  soldered. Even the tabs connecting the drivers wired from the crossover are soldered together. The is a far different experience that what I found inside my cornwalls, fortes and quartets where things like the wiring to the drivers were not soldered, nor the speaker level inputs to the crossovers. Is it common for this generation of khorns with the “monster cable” wire to be buttoned up this much? 

BDCC3369-564F-4D2F-8D1E-EA47412E1657.jpeg

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1 hour ago, DVDMike said:


I received my esr meter and learned how to use it. But after getting into the AK-3 crossover, it seems impossible to be able to test without cutting and stripping wires and resoldering.

 

 you can remove and resolder  1 of the caps   that has multiple caps of the same value  ,  and that should give you a very good idea  as to the condition of the caps   ,   so test  1 of the small caps and 1 of the big caps  ,   then resolder  -----

 

as far as the AK-3 Monster cable , the tips of the cables close to the solder was where there was the most corrosion -

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2 hours ago, RandyH said:

so test  1 of the small caps and 1 of the big caps  ,   then resolder  -----

 

as far as the AK-3 Monster cable , the tips of the cables close to the solder was where there was the most corrosion


On the bass bin, I see signs of corrosion at the back end of the input connections. I’m have a tough time even getting the nut off the back.

 

On the bass cap, looks to be in spec for the uF value. ESR is .22 ohm. Is that high? 
 

on the crossover network, there are 2 uF 50’s listed. But on the one big cap itself it says 100uF
 

 

A7050894-6F8E-48A8-B8DB-8B4E77E46842.jpeg

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29 minutes ago, DVDMike said:


On the bass bin, I see signs of corrosion at the back end of the input connections. I’m have a tough time even getting the nut off the back.

 

On the bass cap, looks to be in spec for the uF value. ESR is .22 ohm. Is that high? 
 

 

 

looks very good on the ESR  for the big caps  , you can cut out the corroded portion  on the Monster Cable, since corrosion equals more resistance  , try to take  a picture if you can

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Posted (edited)
On 7/27/2021 at 10:37 PM, RandyH said:

you can cut out the corroded portion  on the Monster Cable, since corrosion equals more resistance  , try to take  a picture


i think I’m screwed here. I cannot get the banana connectors out of the box. The wire is fused onto the post. Either they designed these connectors never to be taken apart or the design is poor to allow this level of corrosion after 30 years. Idk but I’m a bit miffed that I cannot fix something so basic as a banana plug.
 

I suppose I can’t buy a replacement plastic box that fits. At this point I’m considering cutting a piece of wood to replace the plastic cover and buying new banana connectors. A dremmil saw tool would work to cut the old plugs and take them out. 
 

UPDATE I got the plugs out off the case using a hack saw!

 

i think I need to make it crystal clear that these posts did not look like this before I started working on them to remove the posts that had corrosion on them. The corrosion was there. There was a lot of red dust around the post. 

This photo is after me spending 2 hours trying to get the nuts off. So what you see here was me using a lot of force trying to get it off. I used wrenches, pliers, screw drivers, wire cutters and such. I wasn’t try to salvage the posts so I couldn’t have cared less about the wire or post. The purpose of the photo was to show you where I was in the process, not to show how it looked from the factory. I thought that was quite obvious. Apparently not. 

 

 

 

AF14A856-CC6B-479A-B462-35E6D8480ED5.jpeg

Edited by DVDMike
Added photo, updated information, clarified what photo is showing
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I don't believe that they looked like that when they left the factory.  Looks like you need a fairly large soldering iron and a solder sucker...

 

Those look like these:

 

kUfqI1yl5AJOrI-HDoUBGh4W8DDrcwezEX-9A8Ih

 

61G4v3ASiEL._SL1500_.jpg

 

Once you can remove most of the solder that was placed on those screw-down terminal blocks, I think you're going to be able to take things apart and remove the leads when you wish to.

 

Chris

 

 

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