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what constitutes concert level listening?


RickD

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On 8/4/2021 at 3:09 PM, artto said:

Also keep in mind that as the sound gets louder (100dB) our hearing sensitivity becomes flatter.

 

I would have to look it up, but I seem to remember mixes being done between 75-85db as an average, so played back in that range would get you the balance that was wanted in the mix.

 

When I told Al that, he told me no one was going to tell him what volume he had to listen. I think he missed the point.

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8 hours ago, Marvel said:

...I seem to remember mixes being done between 75-85db as an average...

 

The following is taken from this source (Bob Katz): https://www.digido.com/portfolio-item/level-practices-part-2/

 

Quote

III. The Magic of “83” with Film Mixes


In the music world, everyone currently determines their own average record level, and adjusts their monitor accordingly. With no standard, subjective loudness varies from CD to CD in popular music as much as 10-12 dB, which is unacceptable by any professional standard. But in the film world, films are consistent from one to another, because the monitoring gain has been standardized.

 

In 1983, as workshops chairman of the AES Convention, I invited Tomlinson Holman of Lucasfilm to demonstrate the sound techniques used in creating the Star Wars films. Dolby systems engineers labored for two days to calibrate the reproduction system in New York’s flagship Ziegfeld theatre. Over 1000 convention attendees filled the theatre center section. At the end of the demonstration, Tom asked for a show of hands. “How many of you thought the sound was too loud?” About four hands were raised. “How many thought it was too soft?” No hands. “How many thought it was just right?” At least 996 audio engineers raised their hands.

 

This is an incredible testament to the effectiveness of the 83 dB SPL reference standard proposed by Dolby’s Ioan Allen in the mid-70’s, originally calibrated to a level of 0 VU for use with analog magnetic film. The choice of 83 dB SPL has stood the test of time, as it permits wide dynamic range recordings with little or no perceived system noise when recording to magnetic film or 20-bit digital. Dialogue, music and effects fall into a natural perspective with an excellent signal-to-noise ratio and headroom. A good film mix engineer can work without a meter and do it all by the monitor, using the meter simply as a guide. In fact, working with a fixed monitor gain is liberating, not limiting. When digital technology reached the large theatre, the SMPTE attached the SPL calibration to a point below full scale digital. When we converted to digital technology, the VU meter was rapidly replaced by the peak program meter.

 

When AC-3 and DTS became available for home theatre, many authorities recommended lowering the monitor gain by 6 dB because a typical home listening room does not accommodate high SPLs and wide dynamic range. If a DVD contains the wide range theatre mix, many home listeners complain that “this DVD is too loud”, or “I lose the dialogue when I turn the volume down so that the effects don’t blast.” With reduced monitor gain, the soft passages become too soft. For such listeners, the dynamic range may have to be reduced by 6 dB (6 dB upward Compression, or dynamic range reduction) in order to use less monitor gain.


Metadata are coded data which contain information about signal dynamics and intended loudness; this will resolve the conflict between listeners who want the full theatrical experience and those who need to listen softly. But without metadata there are only two solutions: a) to compromise the audio soundtrack by compressing it, or better, b) use an optional compressor for the home system. With the later approach the source audio is uncompromised.

 

Farther down the article, it talks about using a "-6 dB" reference for home CDs, etc. as the zero dB monitor reference point (i.e., 77 dB). 

 

The article is a good discussion of the entire subject of "how loud" and dynamic range of recordings.  While the RIAA-affiliated mixing and mastering shops still have trouble pushing back against the record companies and their "Loudness War" practices, largely, the MPAA (movie) industry practices have set reasonable levels and unofficial standards for mixing and mastering levels.

 

Chris

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I wish I could remember all the concerts I went to 25-30 years ago. Most of them were in big arenas but the most memorable were in small clubs with the best acoustics.

Man when a live, amplified concert checks all the boxes....it's something I'll never forget.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

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On 8/5/2021 at 9:56 AM, EpicKlipschFan said:

 

undertow is mixed & recorded very well, sounds great up loud or at "normal" levels.  loved pushing that one on my K-horns & chorus2 & forte2.  

 

ive been a tool fan since the 90's with undertow... if you like tool, check out a perfect circle, has that maynard sound but so much more musical.  & for a totally different twist check out puscifer, another of maynards side projects with a totally different sound. 

Oh yes I love APC! It was actually their last album "Eat The Elephant" that led me to really exploring and becoming obsessed with Tool. I couldn't really get into Puscifer but I do love that cover Maynard does of Bohemian Rhapsody. Great stuff. 

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There is no meaningful "average."   Maybe for Rock 'n Roll, but not for highly dynamic orchestral music, particularly in film where there may be soft background music, loud foreground music, and much dialog with meaningful Wyler-esk silent patches.   You could take a sample and take an arithmetic mean, but if you had such a figure, what would you do with it?

 

There are quasi-meaningful instantaneous peak levels, though.  THX specifies 105 dB peaks above 80 Hz in a huge venue.  In my 4,257 cu.ft. room, at 13 feet, they would recommend only about 100 dB peaks (about 4 watts with my Khorns, in that treated room, at 13 feet), C weight, during loud passages, due to the influence of early reflectionsConventionally, at least 20 dB headroom should be allowed over a nominally typical -often-seen-but-not- "average" level of 80 dB, during loud passages (once again, with instantaneous peaks of 100 dB). 

 

Now, below 80 Hz, for subwoofers, for a huge venue, THX wants a peak level of about 115 dB, or 110 dB in my 4,257 cu. ft. room.  With the consistency of film levels mentioned by Bob Katz in Chris A's post above, I find that running films at about 5  to 7 dB below reference (for Blu-ray 5.1) is frequently about correct, which matches THX's recommendations.  My friend in the UK finds that 5 dB below reference is virtually always correct for him. 

 

The loudest I have ever had my Khorns was with 25 watt input per channel (the end of Mahler's 2nd Symphony), which felt like it was doing structural damage to the house.

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17 hours ago, garyrc said:

There is no meaningful "average."   Maybe for Rock 'n Roll, but not for highly dynamic orchestral music, particularly in film where there may be soft background music, loud foreground music, and much dialog with meaningful Wyler-esk silent patches.   You could take a sample and take an arithmetic mean, but if you had such a figure, what would you do with it?

 

There are quasi-meaningful instantaneous peak levels, though.  THX specifies 105 dB peaks above 80 Hz in a huge venue.  In my 4,257 cu.ft. room, at 13 feet, they would recommend only about 100 dB peaks (about 4 watts with my Khorns, in that treated room, at 13 feet), C weight, during loud passages, due to the influence of early reflectionsConventionally, at least 20 dB headroom should be allowed over a nominally typical -often-seen-but-not- "average" level of 80 dB, during loud passages (once again, with instantaneous peaks of 100 dB). 

 

Now, below 80 Hz, for subwoofers, for a huge venue, THX wants a peak level of about 115 dB, or 110 dB in my 4,257 cu. ft. room.  With the consistency of film levels mentioned by Bob Katz in Chris A's post above, I find that running films at about 5  to 7 dB below reference (for Blu-ray 5.1) is frequently about correct, which matches THX's recommendations.  My friend in the UK finds that 5 dB below reference is virtually always correct for him. 

 

The loudest I have ever had my Khorns was with 25 watt input per channel (the end of Mahler's 2nd Symphony), which felt like it was doing structural damage to the house.

Was that with or without hearing protection?

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7 hours ago, RickD said:

Was that with or without hearing protection?

 

Without, but the 25 watt reading on my amp output meter was for peaks as instantaneous as the peak reading meter could read, or about 109 dB, comparable to bass peaks in a commercial theater.   A 41 year old THX study measured 110 dB bass peaks in a commercial cinema for The Empire Strikes Back in 70mm 6 track Dolby Stereo.  As I said above, THX wants subwoofer peaks of 115 dB peaks possible in a huge venue, and 110 dB in a room my size.  The Mahler ending had full orchestra, chimes, Great Gong, but I think the main energy was in the bass.  I didn't have a subwoofer then, but the Khorns alone can be amazing that way.  408 Hard of hearing Vector Images - Free & Royalty-free Hard of hearing  Vectors | Depositphotos®

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9 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

Without, but the 25 watt reading on my amp output meter was for peaks as instantaneous as the peak reading meter could read, or about 109 dB, comparable to bass peaks in a commercial theater.   A 41 year old THX study measured 110 dB bass peaks in a commercial cinema for The Empire Strikes Back in 70mm 6 track Dolby Stereo.  As I said above, THX wants subwoofer peaks of 115 dB peaks possible in a huge venue, and 110 dB in a room my size.  The Mahler ending had full orchestra, chimes, Great Gong, but I think the main energy was in the bass.  I didn't have a subwoofer then, but the Khorns alone can be amazing that way.  408 Hard of hearing Vector Images - Free & Royalty-free Hard of hearing  Vectors | Depositphotos®

Possible sub for the Khorns..

Sub.JPG

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10 hours ago, RickD said:

I stand corrected.  Big mid-range.

 

This is from the dawn of audio. The WE555 and the WE16A are among the first hi-fi devices. The amount of money Western Electric poured into audio was tremendous. The devices they made are still state of the art. PWK based the K55 off of the WE555 in fact the first Khorn had a WE555 driver. Fun stuff to study...

 

 

 

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