Jump to content

what constitutes concert level listening?


Recommended Posts

I placed an order for Al's extreme slope crossovers for my Khorns and am waiting in the queue. After ordering I noticed a statement on his web site that these crossovers work best at concert level listening. That statement left me wondering what constitutes concert level listening? A front row seat at a Grateful Dead  concert or a mid section seat at an orchestra performance?

 

My volume levels vary depending on the type of music I am listening to and if my wife is out. I've heard the horns play at 50w and that is borderline painful, usually I am at a watt or two of amp output which fills my house with sound.

 

Any thoughts?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

90 to 95 db at the listening position is about right for most live shows (taken from one who has seen over 500), and this includes/included Grateful Dead/related family performances. Heavy metal shows in small halls or larger places with mega systems will skew the sample louder,, most acts I see in arenas, festivals,  and "sheds" will put you in the 90-95db "area" at the seats......this typically covers "sweet spot" locations from the 10th to the 30th row inclusive. 

 

Most people don't know just how loud 110db really is, that can literally ruin your hearing permanently and is getting into pain threshold.100 is pretty flipping' loud in it's own right. If it's metal bands, yeah, they're louder but most everyone else doesn't hit 100db save for rare instances (and yes, if you're front of house at Bonnaroo or major stadium it will be loud but back off 30 rows and the setup presents itself much differently). 100db is more like the inside of a Las Vegas club, at peak. Smaller room dialed in so that sound is pumpin'.....

 

As for Al's crossovers, yes, they like having some power put into them, and this 90+ db at your listening position is about right. Larger rooms, solid state power, bigger volume would be "the lane" for Al's ES product.

 

I have Cornwalls and Belles in more modest sized rooms and find the simple networks work best for me, because while I will hit that 90-95 db area at the listening position, it's in more modest sized rooms,  where a 20 x 30 or larger room would present a different situation/larger room to load.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I saw Tool last year in Memphis and it was waaaaaaay higher than 95-100db. I would guess 115db. It was so loud that my ears felt like they were stuffed with cotton for a few hours after. If I ever go to another rock concert like that I WILL wear ear protection of some kind. 

 

When I really want to rock out with my CWIVs I hit volume levels of about 105db peaks. I don't listen at this volume for more than a few songs. My sweet spot is usually 95db peaks. Which, honestly, is still too loud for extended listening. My listening position is 9ft away from the speakers and it's here where I do my measurements. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

to me concert levels are more like mentioned above with tool,  ive seen them 3 times & probably 50 other big name rock bands & many smaller rock shows in local bars.  back in the late 80's motley crue was touring for one of their new albums & was bragging about setting records for the loudest concert, they set a record of i think 121db in my city. when its that loud your ears distort & you feel kind of a tickle sensation. way too loud!

 

so i'd say concert level is anything above ~95-100db, do that for an hour or so & you will feel it in your ears, mine were muffled for a day or so after that motley crue show.   

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, EpicKlipschFan said:

to me concert levels are more like mentioned above with tool,  ive seen them 3 times & probably 50 other big name rock bands & many smaller rock shows in local bars.  back in the late 80's motley crue was touring for one of their new albums & was bragging about setting records for the loudest concert, they set a record of i think 121db in my city. when its that loud your ears distort & you feel kind of a tickle sensation. way too loud!

 

so i'd say concert level is anything above ~95-100db, do that for an hour or so & you will feel it in your ears, mine were muffled for a day or so after that motley crue show.   

 

 

 

 

AKA "making your brain itch" haha., Not good for your health lol. 

I was not impressed with the SQ at the Tool show, at least from my seat. I felt like the speakers they used were being stressed too much and the whole time I was thinking how Tool sounded better on my headphone rigs haha. This was before I bought my Cornwall IVs. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I finally got a calibrated microphone a month ago and found that 90dB continuous was borderline too much for anything other than "show off for a song" for my tastes.  I then put on hearing protection  and decided to see how loud I could get Heresy IIIs with an 8WPC tube amp.  Got the volume control up to 3/4 before I hit 110dB, which with -22dB rated ear muffs was getting just too dang loud.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Audible Nectar said:

90 to 95 db at the listening position is about right for most live shows (taken from one who has seen over 500), and this includes/included Grateful Dead/related family performances. Heavy metal shows in small halls or larger places with mega systems will skew the sample louder,, most acts I see in arenas, festivals,  and "sheds" will put you in the 90-95db "area" at the seats......this typically covers "sweet spot" locations from the 10th to the 30th row inclusive. 

 

Most people don't know just how loud 110db really is, that can literally ruin your hearing permanently and is getting into pain threshold.100 is pretty flipping' loud in it's own right. If it's metal bands, yeah, they're louder but most everyone else doesn't hit 100db save for rare instances (and yes, if you're front of house at Bonnaroo or major stadium it will be loud but back off 30 rows and the setup presents itself much differently). 100db is more like the inside of a Las Vegas club, at peak. Smaller room dialed in so that sound is pumpin'.....

 

As for Al's crossovers, yes, they like having some power put into them, and this 90+ db at your listening position is about right. Larger rooms, solid state power, bigger volume would be "the lane" for Al's ES product.

 

I have Cornwalls and Belles in more modest sized rooms and find the simple networks work best for me, because while I will hit that 90-95 db area at the listening position, it's in more modest sized rooms,  where a 20 x 30 or larger room would present a different situation/larger room to load.

I made two mistakes regarding hearing in my life, 1 was second row center at a Led Zeppelin concert ( couldn't hear my mom yelling at me for getting home late) 2 was firing a 9mm without ear protectors. My chair is about 15ft back from the speakers with 18ft ceilings. Al originally explained that his gentle slopes had an overlap where you hear sound in a band twice. That steered me towards the ES. If I don't like the Extreme slope I can send the ES4800 back and exchange for the A4800.  My amp is a McIntosh MA352 with 200 per channel. The front meters show .02 to 1 watt when I am listening with 1 watt being comfortably loud. I imagine 100 watts which the khorns are rated for would cause structural damage to the house.

 

I've been to too many concerts to count, I regret not saving  my ticket stubs. Had to listen to Grateful Dead from out in the parking lot because I didn't have enough money. Probably just as well, they still sounded great.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replies guys. I'll ping Al on this one see what he recommends.  Originally he said the gentle slopes where the best bang for the buck, then he told me about the double play issue.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/2/2021 at 10:03 AM, CoryGillmore said:

 

 

AKA "making your brain itch" haha., Not good for your health lol. 

I was not impressed with the SQ at the Tool show, at least from my seat. I felt like the speakers they used were being stressed too much and the whole time I was thinking how Tool sounded better on my headphone rigs haha. This was before I bought my Cornwall IVs. 

 

of the 3 tool shows i saw, only the last one for 10,000 days had poor SQ, i agree the speakers were being pushed too hard on that show, i was seated dead center in the 1st row of the balcony so the hanging center 2 or 3 speakers were pointed right at us.  the other 2 shows i was off to the right side & it sounded much better.  i also saw a perfect circle at the same location & they sounded so much better.  this location has about 8500 capacity & all other concerts ive seen there sounded very good but loud, even motley crues record db show 30+ years ago sounded better than the last tool show. 

 

yeah brain itch is not good... after all those concerts & many years of overly loud home audio trying to recreate the live shows & loud noises like high horse power engines with open headers at the drag strip i have a little bit of tinnitus in a dead silent room, so i have stopped abusing my ears & will wear ear protection at any future shows.       

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/2/2021 at 10:24 AM, BadChile said:

I finally got a calibrated microphone a month ago and found that 90dB continuous was borderline too much for anything other than "show off for a song" for my tastes.  I then put on hearing protection  and decided to see how loud I could get Heresy IIIs with an 8WPC tube amp.  Got the volume control up to 3/4 before I hit 110dB, which with -22dB rated ear muffs was getting just too dang loud.

Funny thing about volume is general loss of fidelity. Now I can play things much louder and cleaner than the vast majority of forum members with the Super MWM's. I do so on few occasions though and mostly when I have visitors that want to hear fireworks and drums thump their chest. I lose way to much music detail at high volumes and I find detail to be more important now than shear volume. 

 

  Concerts lost me a long time ago when it became mandatory that you had to buy through legal scalpers like Ticketmaster and pay stupid high parking garage fees. I can stay at home and have my own concert with grilled prime rib the way I like it every day and avoid all the hassle of attendance plus the outrageous cost.

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, EpicKlipschFan said:

 

of the 3 tool shows i saw, only the last one for 10,000 days had poor SQ, i agree the speakers were being pushed too hard on that show, i was seated dead center in the 1st row of the balcony so the hanging center 2 or 3 speakers were pointed right at us.  the other 2 shows i was off to the right side & it sounded much better.  i also saw a perfect circle at the same location & they sounded so much better.  this location has about 8500 capacity & all other concerts ive seen there sounded very good but loud, even motley crues record db show 30+ years ago sounded better than the last tool show. 

 

yeah brain itch is not good... after all those concerts & many years of overly loud home audio trying to recreate the live shows & loud noises like high horse power engines with open headers at the drag strip i have a little bit of tinnitus in a dead silent room, so i have stopped abusing my ears & will wear ear protection at any future shows.       

Agreed on the Tool shows! Hey that's awesome you've seen them 3 times though! I only just became obsessed with Tool in January 2019. So thankfully I only had to wait 8 months for their long awaited follow-up to 10,000 Days lol. I absolutely adore Fear Inoculum for critical listening. On my CWIVs, 10k Days and Fear Inoculum sound best. Lateralus and Aenima can sound too shouty at times. Undertow may actually sound good though, I can't remember. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, RickD said:

Al originally explained that his gentle slopes had an overlap where you hear sound in a band twice.

 

Technically that would be yes, but it practicality... maybe. That would depend on the speakers.

 

On Klipschorns and La Scalas, you would be hearing the same parts twice because of the delay between the woofer and mid, the between the mid and the tweeter. It you went fully active where you could set delays on the mid and tweeter, you could use first order filters and be fine... better actually, as you could also flatten the phase. With the extreme slope crossovers, you also need to sit far enough back that the three drivers integrate their wave fronts. otherwise you can here the vertical shift from the tweeter to the mid as the freq. drops through the crossover point.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Marvel said:

 

Technically that would be yes, but it practicality... maybe. That would depend on the speakers.

 

On Klipschorns and La Scalas, you would be hearing the same parts twice because of the delay between the woofer and mid, the between the mid and the tweeter. It you went fully active where you could set delays on the mid and tweeter, you could use first order filters and be fine... better actually, as you could also flatten the phase. With the extreme slope crossovers, you also need to sit far enough back that the three drivers integrate their wave fronts. otherwise you can here the vertical shift from the tweeter to the mid as the freq. drops through the crossover point.

 

I have Khorns and sit 14-15ft from the speakers. Can you elaborate on first order filters? I am not knowledgeable regarding speaker networks. 

 

I sent Al an email regarding the low volume issue with the Extreme slope networks. He told me he normally listens to his speakers at around 1 watt output. . If  the output meters on my McIntosh are to be trusted, my Khorns get quite loud at 1 watt. If needed I can return the ES400 portion and exchange for the Gentle Source version, Al gives a 2 week window to return if not happy. 

 

Thanks,

 

Rick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Dave A said:

Funny thing about volume is general loss of fidelity. Now I can play things much louder and cleaner than the vast majority of forum members with the Super MWM's. I do so on few occasions though and mostly when I have visitors that want to hear fireworks and drums thump their chest. I lose way to much music detail at high volumes and I find detail to be more important now than shear volume. 

 

  Concerts lost me a long time ago when it became mandatory that you had to buy through legal scalpers like Ticketmaster and pay stupid high parking garage fees. I can stay at home and have my own concert with grilled prime rib the way I like it every day and avoid all the hassle of attendance plus the outrageous cost.

Van Morrison played here a few years back and the Venue was charging  $50 to sit outside in the parking lot. The most expensive ticket price was $1500. 

 

 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, RickD said:

Van Morrison played here a few years back and the Venue was charging  $50 to sit outside in the parking lot. The most expensive ticket price was $1500. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah screw that. I'm basically done with concerts because of stuff like that. These guys got more money than God and they charge like that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/1/2021 at 10:33 PM, jvs1670 said:

I'd say anything around 110 decibels would be concert level.

That's stupid loud. Rock should not be more than 96 db  for 2 hours max. unless you want to kill your hearing.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, geezin' said:

 

 

Yeah screw that. I'm basically done with concerts because of stuff like that. These guys got more money than God and they charge like that?

irrelevant how much money " these guys" have.  as a free person you absolutely have the right to spend/use your dollars as you wish. they have the right to charge as they see fit and spend/use their dollars as they wish. freedom is beautiful.

 

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, RickD said:

Van Morrison played here a few years back and the Venue was charging  $50 to sit outside in the parking lot. The most expensive ticket price was $1500. 

Fleetwood Mac with aging coke burned out wrinkled superstar female talent wanted $7,500.00 for center front row seats in Nashville around a year ago. My wife wanted to see PBR bull riding at least once and decent seats were over $300 plus scalper fees but did include a parking garage spot which I thought was SUPER generous of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...