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what constitutes concert level listening?


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1 hour ago, RickD said:

 

I have Khorns and sit 14-15ft from the speakers. Can you elaborate on first order filters? I am not knowledgeable regarding speaker networks. 

 

I sent Al an email regarding the low volume issue with the Extreme slope networks. He told me he normally listens to his speakers at around 1 watt output. . If  the output meters on my McIntosh are to be trusted, my Khorns get quite loud at 1 watt. If needed I can return the ES400 portion and exchange for the Gentle Source version, Al gives a 2 week window to return if not happy. 

 

Thanks,

 

Rick

 

Others could explain better than me... these folks explain in a way to sell their own design, but tbey do a pretty good job of it.

https://www.3squareaudio.com/copy-of-1st-order-crossovers

 

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1 hour ago, geezin' said:

 

 

Yeah screw that. I'm basically done with concerts because of stuff like that. These guys got more money than God and they charge like that?

$1500 almost pays for the new set of networks.

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

Fleetwood Mac with aging coke burned out wrinkled superstar female talent wanted $7,500.00 for center front row seats in Nashville around a year ago. My wife wanted to see PBR bull riding at least once and decent seats were over $300 plus scalper fees but did include a parking garage spot which I thought was SUPER generous of them.

Paid $10 to see Led Zeppelin in 1974. That was a gift that keeps on giving. Tinnitus!

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1 hour ago, Subway said:

irrelevant how much money " these guys" have.  as a free person you absolutely have the right to spend/use your dollars as you wish. they have the right to charge as they see fit and spend/use their dollars as they wish. freedom is beautiful.

 

Won't see me there. I don't have that kind of freedom in my wallet.

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1 hour ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

That's stupid loud. Rock should not be more than 96 db  for 2 hours max. unless you want to kill your hearing.

Wonder how many DBs the Dead put out with their speaker towers and 28,000 watts of McIntosh power.

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13 minutes ago, RickD said:

Wonder how many DBs the Dead put out with their speaker towers and 28,000 watts of McIntosh power.

Headroom galore, low distortion via lots of JBL Primo stuff. No monitors required. They got a piece of the exact same sound the crown heard. I don't think anyone ever complained about their sound.

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4 hours ago, RickD said:

I have Khorns and sit 14-15ft from the speakers. Can you elaborate on first order filters? I am not knowledgeable regarding speaker networks. 

 

I sent Al an email regarding the low volume issue with the Extreme slope networks. He told me he normally listens to his speakers at around 1 watt output. . If  the output meters on my McIntosh are to be trusted, my Khorns get quite loud at 1 watt. If needed I can return the ES400 portion and exchange for the Gentle Source version, Al gives a 2 week window to return if not happy. 

Rick,

If you sit 14-15ft from the speakers then your room must be quite large and you should be fine with ES networks.

Listeners with small rooms sitting close to the K-Horns by necessity have the volume down fairly low and have reported that the ES networks make the sound "thin".

I sit 13 feet from my K-Horns in a big room and do not think they sound "thin", even at quite low volume.

 

I don't know how much research you have done on the ES networks or what you are expecting but a couple of old threads may better align your expectations with how they will sound -

the first is when ALK was developing them for S.Fogg

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/32872-new-extreme-slope-crossover-requiring-no-zobel/

 

the next is a discussion where ES networks are put forward as a solution to harshness

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/98100-khorn-crossover-capacitors-harshness-problem/

 

@Deang was very objective in discussions of the "thin" sound of the ES networks in his smallish listening room and hopefully he will chime in.

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8 hours ago, Wirrunna said:

Rick,

If you sit 14-15ft from the speakers then your room must be quite large and you should be fine with ES networks.

Listeners with small rooms sitting close to the K-Horns by necessity have the volume down fairly low and have reported that the ES networks make the sound "thin".

I sit 13 feet from my K-Horns in a big room and do not think they sound "thin", even at quite low volume.

 

I don't know how much research you have done on the ES networks or what you are expecting but a couple of old threads may better align your expectations with how they will sound -

the first is when ALK was developing them for S.Fogg

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/32872-new-extreme-slope-crossover-requiring-no-zobel/

 

the next is a discussion where ES networks are put forward as a solution to harshness

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/98100-khorn-crossover-capacitors-harshness-problem/

 

@Deang was very objective in discussions of the "thin" sound of the ES networks in his smallish listening room and hopefully he will chime in.

Thanks for the links, I'll give them a read.

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I didn't go over all the posts in detail so sorry if this is a repeat.

 

1. I didn't see any mention of what weighting scale is referenced in the SPL.

"A" weighting is centered around 1KHz and rolls off the measured response below that. It's used primarily as a reference where our ears are most sensitive and does not reflect how much bass is present in the SPL.

 

2. "C" weighting provides a flatter response down into the bass range. Bass almost always contributes the most to higher SPL in music. Also keep in mind that as the sound gets louder (100dB) our hearing sensitivity becomes flatter.

 

3. "Z" weighting (not usually available on most SPL meters) provides the most  linear (unweighted) SPL measurement.

 

4. Room Gain. Measuring SPL in an enclosed space will tilt (bias) the SPL measurements. In our acoustically small domestic rooms, even large ones (ie: 20'x30'x8'+) room gain typically makes things sound much louder at the same SPL than it would in a large concert hall or outdoors due to the closer proximity of walls/ceiling resulting closer and more sustained reflections, especially at lower frequencies. The room gain contribution is typically about 9dB (I round it out to 10dB for convenience). Using that as a guideline you can expect 100dB SPL in your listening room to be equivalent to 110dB in a large concert hall or outdoors. The lower the SPL the less effect room gain has. The higher the SPL the more room gain will contribute to the apparent loudness level.

 

I always use the C weighting scale for measuring SPL in my room while listening.

 

The loudest sounds I have recorded were at a drag strip. The top fuel dragsters registered peak SPL of 134.5dB approximately 250 feet away at the top of the seating stands (est. 40ft above ground).

 

EDIT: When I said "recorded", I didn't mean just the SPL (being the highest I've "measured"). I mean I actually recorded this - on a hand held TASCAM DR-05 AT 24/96

134.5dB is r e a l l y *************  ******  ************ ****  L O U D

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5 hours ago, artto said:

I didn't go over all the posts in detail so sorry if this is a repeat.

 

1. I didn't see any mention of what weighting scale is referenced in the SPL.

"A" weighting is centered around 1KHz and rolls off the measured response below that. It's used primarily as a reference where our ears are most sensitive and does not reflect how much bass is present in the SPL.

 

2. "C" weighting provides a flatter response down into the bass range. Bass almost always contributes the most to higher SPL in music. Also keep in mind that as the sound gets louder (100dB) our hearing sensitivity becomes flatter.

 

3. "Z" weighting (not usually available on most SPL meters) provides the most  linear (unweighted) SPL measurement.

 

4. Room Gain. Mhring SPL in an enclosed space will tilt (bias) the SPL measurements. In our acoustically small domestic rooms, even large ones (ie: 20'x30'x8'+) room gain typically makes things sound much louder at the same SPL than it would in a large concert hall or outdoors due to the closer proximity of walls/ceiling resulting closer and more sustained reflections, especially at lower frequencies. The room gain contribution is typically about 9dB (I round it out to 10dB for convenience). Using that as a guideline you can expect 100dB SPL in your listening room to be equivalent to 110dB in a large concert hall or outdoors. The lower the SPL the less effect room gain has. The higher the SPL the more room gain will contribute to the apparent loudness level.

 

I always use the C weighting scale for measuring SPL in my room while listening.

 

The loudest sounds I have recorded were at a drag strip. The top fuel dragsters registered peak SPL of 134.5dB approximately 250 feet away at the top of the seating stands (est. 40ft above ground).

"C" weighting make sense to me. I have an odd shaped layout in my listening room, pretty much an open floor plan. The Khorns sit in corners with windows on both side of the horns. On the right side there is a long wall and on  the left a short wall where there is a 12' entry to the kitchen. Ceiling height is 18ft. Bass is good, I don't notice any difference between the windows and the previous place I lived where the speaker were back into solid walls.

When I climb the stairs the speakers sound better when my ears are about 12' above the 1st floor. This puzzles me.

 

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When the coyotes start howling from 10 miles away.😉  Off topic: My wife just got me the new Klipsch book. Actually , she had it ordered a long time ago and I just got it today! Absolutely awesome~ Take care all~

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My dad took my brother and I to indoor motocross races in a small domed stadium when I was 10 years old.  I think my ears are still ringing some from that!  I've been to concerts where very near the stage was actually not as loud as a few rows back where you get the brunt of the PA speakers which are directed over the stage and first few rows.  I can handle higher SPLs when listening outdoors where there are fewer or basically no reflections.  Distortion to me is worse than loud.

 

As to what is concert level listening, I guess that depends on what concert, but I would say 90db with peaks in the mid to high 90's is enough for me to get the concert level experience at home.

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That would be nice to have on the coffee table. I am getting used to waiting on things I order.  My new McIntosh, 3 months, carbon fibre fender for my motorcycle 6 months, now waiting on cross-overs for my speakers.

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On 8/3/2021 at 6:32 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

That's stupid loud. Rock should not be more than 96 db  for 2 hours max. unless you want to kill your hearing.

Absolutely. Any more and it just isn't enjoyable- and 96 is borderline. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

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I was present at the Danley speakers/system presentation which wad held at the rock club. Closed hall, round or slightly elipsoid shape, maybe 30-40 meters diameter.

I mention this because an SPL meter was hooked up at the listening position.

85-95 dB was acceptable for listening.

When SPL meter reached 103 dB (may be a bit more but less than 110) briefly, the wooden pannels on the walls started to rattle and we could only endure it for a short period of time. 

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On 8/3/2021 at 11:32 AM, CoryGillmore said:

Agreed on the Tool shows! Hey that's awesome you've seen them 3 times though! I only just became obsessed with Tool in January 2019. So thankfully I only had to wait 8 months for their long awaited follow-up to 10,000 Days lol. I absolutely adore Fear Inoculum for critical listening. On my CWIVs, 10k Days and Fear Inoculum sound best. Lateralus and Aenima can sound too shouty at times. Undertow may actually sound good though, I can't remember. 

 

undertow is mixed & recorded very well, sounds great up loud or at "normal" levels.  loved pushing that one on my K-horns & chorus2 & forte2.  

 

ive been a tool fan since the 90's with undertow... if you like tool, check out a perfect circle, has that maynard sound but so much more musical.  & for a totally different twist check out puscifer, another of maynards side projects with a totally different sound. 

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19 hours ago, YK Thom said:

Absolutely. Any more and it just isn't enjoyable- and 96 is borderline. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 

You might find this chart interesting. I did.

soundLevels.JPG

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