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Klipsch Jubilee and DSP


charbuggie

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I have finally figured out how to loopback in the Lynx Hilo and will get some REW data up here soon.  

I was looking for some input on how to handle the CD from 10K to 20K.  Right now it drops off about 12DB in that range with a constant slope.  I do have the ability to get Mitch to implement a High Shelf and help it some.  It is the nature of these drivers and curious what others have done??  Maybe just leave it be or boost it some.

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1 hour ago, charbuggie said:

I do have the ability to get Mitch to implement a High Shelf and help it some.  It is the nature of these drivers and curious what others have done?

 

I always try to EQ to flat response on-axis, given that diaphragm breakup is not occurring. 

 

What's likely in the case of Mitch's experience, he's probably used compression drivers with titanium or aluminum dome diaphragms that typically experience dome break up (i.e., non-pistonic modes) above 10 kHz, so he's probably accustomed to rolling this octave off. 

 

However, you paid real money for beryllium dome 2" compression drivers that don't do that.  If you allow the response to roll off above 10 kHz, I think you're basically throwing away that investment: good response up to 17-20 kHz is what you paid for, and it adds back the "sparkle" and air that should be there.

 

Notable drivers that also do not experience non-pistonic modes above 10 kHz are the ring radiators (i.e., BMS and certain B&C drivers), and the axi-periodic Celestion Axi2050 (titanium) diaphragm 2" compression driver, which was specifically designed so that it also avoids non-pistonic modes and cancellations above 10 kHz.  These compression drivers also need to be EQed to flat response on-axis, since they don't "chatter".

 

Chris

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Jriver is running on a windows computer.  I was wondering could I use an IPAD and get the Jriver remote for it and would it interface with the windows computer.  Right now the 2020 Apple iPad (10.2-inch, Wi-Fi, 32GB) is a great deal on Amazon and everyone says the IPAD is the way to go but I dont need compatibility issues with the windows 10 computer running Jriver and controlling my system.  Or I can get a cheap Samsung A7?

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You have to give permissions to connect, these should be self explanatory. Give yourself the ability to access your computer. Ov you tablet end you will probably use the Windows ip address to connect. When you connect, you will actually be on your WIndows desktop...

 

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@charbuggie -- if you're using one of the later versions of jriver, you can also access and operate jriver from a web page (jriver calls it "panel") on a tablet or whatever device you like.  haven't used it since i haven't used jriver in a while so don't know how it compares to jremote.

Edited by jcn3
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  • 2 weeks later...

 

I have had some time to spend listening and I am very happy.  My room made life difficult and as you know I went the DSP route.  This is one of many ways to skin this cat and honestly it was easier for me because I really did not know what I was doing.  Mitch has been great to work with along with some others that have helped me.  Mitch was very patient as well and the service he offered fit me perfectly.   

Bottom line now things are much clearer and it does not sound like a blob of sounds.  Crisp and accurate is how I would describe it.  In the bottom end it is unreal what clean bass sounds like.  

I asked Mitch to give me a synopsis of what we did and here it is.

Like I said there are other ways to go about this but this route was the easiest for me and I am done.  Time to enjoys it.

 

Rob asked me to write up a bit about the before and after DSP measurements of his Klipsch Jubilee with KPT-1802-HLS sub. A little bit of background before we get into the measurements to assist in understanding what the DSP is doing and why.

Software DSP running on a computer is incredibly powerful and transparent. In the pro audio industry, virtually every piece of analog hardware has been modelled in DSP to precisely and accurately replicate the sound for any particular h/w device. These are routinely purchased as a “plugins” and used in Digital Audio Workstations (DAW’s) in the creation and production of music. There are literally thousands of plugins today for music creators to choose from. Some examples here: https://www.uaudio.com/uad-plugins.html

We can also use software DSP to model the “ideal” loudspeaker with perfect frequency and timing response. Loudspeakers are typically minimum phase devices, but adding crossovers and placing them in rooms alter both the frequency and timing response of the sound arriving at our ears.

Linear phase digital crossovers are one of the few types of crossovers that sum properly in the frequency and time domain. Some good reference material here and here.  We used linear phase digital XO in Rob’s system with XO points at 80 Hz and 450 Hz.

Placing speakers in rooms activate room modes and can deviate from minimum phase response. John Mulcahy, author of REW, has a technical paper on minimum phase and explanation on a common cause of non-minimum phase behavior in rooms, even at low frequencies. The DSP we use can correct for non-minimum phase behavior in Rob’s room.

We want the sound arriving at our ears to be the ideal minimum phase response removing the effects of non-aligned drivers, loudspeaker crossovers and non-minimum phase room responses. We want to hear the sound that is on the recording to arrive at our ears with no frequency or timing distortions so we hear the music as the artist, producers, and engineers intended.

Here is the frequency response of Rob’s system before DSP:

 

 

 

image.png.8385b853f49ce0f3004fe22ceee9c885.png

 

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We have a smooth response from 15 Hz to 20 kHz to well within the studio spec of +- 3dB tolerance.

Let’s look at the step or timing response:

 

image.png.44c58239ef99c06a59a9583f011a8e8e.png

 

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The after DSP shows that the direct sound from all speakers are arriving at the ears at the same time. In addition to the precision driver time alignment, the rooms non-minimum phase behavior is gone. This is the “ideal” minimum phase response.

One should note that both the left and right channels are virtually identical both in the frequency and time domain. This is what accounts for a perfect stereo image with a rock solid phantom center image and increased depth of field. Another common phrase to describe this is that the speakers have disappeared.

It has been my experience that these two measurements, frequency response and timing (step) response cover the main aspects of showing a system that has been restored to its ideal minimum phase response. Of course in REW, we can look at numerous other charts that have different view, but these two are the main ones. My book on, “Accurate Sound Reproduction using DSP” goes into great detail with all of the different chart views. I also show that the corrected frequency and timing response is just not for one location, but across a wide sweet spot covering a 6’ x 2’ grid with little deviation in frequency and timing response.

A note on DSP/DRC software programs. There are quite a few to choose from and I have tested most of them. Audiolense, Acourate, and Focus Fidelity Designer are the top 3 commercial DSP programs available today. With the right know how, they are able to accurately and precisely restore the ideal minimum phase response arriving at one’s ears. Almost all other DSP/DRC software fail in one way or another to reach that goal.

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

The room looks great by the way.  He has spent some money on the room treatments and on the electronics.


We listened first to the Jubes w/o the sub first off all analog with a custom non eq passive Crossover.  I was shocked at the curve of the bass bin with no EQ.  It was w/o the humps seen in the typical unmodified response curve.  Yes there was a small peak at 1.5 K and 10K.  We only heard a few tracks with this setup.


Then switched to the digital he has described above.


This system has no preamp.  From PC via USB to the hilo then to the amps.  The idea of doing something like this with a DEQX in the past has been discussed here before.  He considered this route before.


We switched to the digital and I was out the gate surprised with what I heard.  I played mostly my late 70's funk tracks that I've listened to multiple hundreds of times.  No doubt that the two tracks Con funk shun "Miss got the body" and Cameo "Keep it Hot" are the best I've heard when it comes to detail, 3D and freakin' "decay".  I've never heard a system that makes the decay of instruments this noticeable.  These are old recordings too.  I also played tracks that had notable strengths in the 80 Hz area that I love and it reproduced those well.  There are also many tracks I played that will kill my ears if the K402's aren't setup right....and it didn't do that either.  
This isn't a "warm" system by any means.  I've never heard that PASS Xa25 before....it is possible I'm picking up its benefits with all the detail.  The sound didn't get brittle which I've heard in the past with jubes (I'm not going there so don't ask).


Bass is clean and snappy.  I give him some credit, most would have the bass unnaturally turned up with this system...... I'm mean how could you not with that 1802 in your face.  The bass was well integrated and just at the right strength in my tracks I played.  I see no reason to stuff the jubes in the corners.


Quick summary, this system has exceptional detail, balance and decay like I've never heard before.  No warmth.  Some 3D.  No hiss at all with an ear up to the horn.  No pops or clicks.  Can't hear the fan on the crown amp. 


To my ears, the right channel is a tad bit hotter....but it could be my ears.  In my room the stereo always seems to be hotter on my left...go figure.


I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this route of setup to anyone else if they didn't like the usual digital setup for some reason.

 

jc
 

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1 hour ago, Marvel said:

Wow! Nice looking bunch of gear  James. What are you using for your crossover?

 

Bruce

Well my kp600 have their own analog active crossover.

 

For digital duties I have more than one dbx venue 360.  I also have a dbx subharmonic synthesizer as well as an Ashley analog active crossover.  I'm also using a dbx pa2 digital processor in an outside pro setup

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  • 9 months later...

@charbuggie, @jwc, @Chris A.

im a little nervous about DRC, as Chris said, “backing the early reflections” into the mix, maybe good DRC can tell the difference by amplitude and delay, IDK. With Xilica I can make adjustments from listening position, but I have no way to differentiate original sound from reflected sound.

 Sounds like you’re quite impressed by results.
For right or wrong, I am interested the idea of staying digital until the DSP Dac at the end right before amps. Currently I have streamer, Dac, preamp, Xilica, amps.

 

Does the Lynx Hilo with Audiolense require a dedicated laptop always plugged into system, unlike Xilica which store settings in unit?


Anybody have info on DEQX as comparison to Lynx?

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I use my ears... Like tuning a Musical instrument, the longer you play, the more competent you become.

 

it's not about getting perfect optimization (because that's not really achievable in every listening space), but it's about 'TUNING' your system to your personal liking. Measurements can help you understand why something sounds good, but it can not tell you that something sounds good... to me, measurements are a macro tool and a lagging indicator.

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