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Some Recommendations When Responding To Those Asking For Klipsch Speaker Models For Their Needs


Chris A

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"I decided and sold the RF7 IIIs [after you guys basically advised me to keep them over the Cornwall IVs].  Now that all I have to hear is the Cornwall IVs. Flatly, I don't like them."

 

Probably not too many forum members are going to applaud the above remark...because those that respond to these type of questions typically want everyone else to like the loudspeakers that they think are best i.e., (in their own usage).

 

I find that first trying to understand the requester's needs/viewpoints--then, wishing to be understood (just like The Seven Habits advocates), there are really two questions at a minimum to ask of those asking for guidance on loudspeaker choices. If the OP will not answer the following two questions (or instead answer them quite poorly) before receiving their recommendations, I'd personally pass on trying to help them:

 

  1. "What exactly do you listen to (i.e., albums/tracks) if making speaker comparisons?"

    I find the answer to this question is a major determinant of satisfaction with loudspeakers in real listening rooms.  If they listen for realism in playback of acoustic performances, they'd probably prefer certain Klipsch loudspeaker models.  If instead, they listen for a certain "aesthetic" (i.e., mostly popular music that was not produced with "accuracy" in mind), then they might tend to prefer other types of Klipsch models, etc. If they were willing to enumerate a few of the particular recordings that they are using to make their judgments, I think it would be much easier for others to understand what the requester is looking for.  Can they list some of the recordings (by track name) that they presently listen to?
     
  2. "Can you tell me about your listening room...?", i.e., height, width, and depth--all three dimensions, since many Klipsch loudspeakers don't do very well in rooms with less than 9'/2.7 m ceilings.  Getting an idea of the volume of their listening room is a strong determinant of what's going to work well and what isn't, i.e. Klipschorns in 800 cubic feet listening rooms probably isn't the best suggestion to give them, nor is the suggestion to put bookshelf loudspeakers in rooms having 5500 ft3 /170 m3 into your suggestions. 

    Also, finding out where they plan to put the speakers in-room, and whether or not the room is comprised of bare concrete blocks, or fully acoustically treated floor/walls/ceiling (and whether or not they'll even consider adding these items), will, in my experience, strongly determine what you would recommend without yet again invoking "the Abilene Paradox", like the quote above apparently did recently.

 

Chris

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If someone is so lazy and clueless they would rather look to someone else to recommend their speaker choice rather than doing a little research and soul searching on their personal values and preferences, then they get what they deserve and have no reason to be unhappy.

 

Agree that room size and treatments have an immense effect on speaker implementation.  But that did not stop this high school kid from buying LaScalas for a way too small bedroom.  I recently moved my stereo from a dedicated listening room rather small to a larger den / kitchen area, and my sound has never been better as a result.

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What's not to like. It's not perfect but what is. Can take it on face value or, can go deeper into hole.

Thinking some of us do well with choice after the basic questions.

Not really any disenchantment, 

at least that I read here. Picking out of sight, out of the blue speakers for someone even if one has heard them before will often as not satisfy to an extent. At least to the point of chasing the sound.

No experience needed for a wine taster. One will know when they find the taste.

 

Klipsch most have found, leaves a good impression on their musical palate.

It's all good...

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I always expect that a price ceiling will be quickly determined in every case--either explicitly by the requester or inferred through dialog with him/her. That's usually not an issue.

 

But I've seen the two questions (the two posed above) forgotten quite often: the reason for this thread.  I've seen more than one "round trip to Abilene".  :angry:

 

:smile:

 

Chris

 

 

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I never quite understood the first question "What exactly do you listen to (i.e., albums/tracks) if making speaker comparisons?".

 

The reason is that to my understanding the speaker have to spill out the recording as accurate as possible.

And that goes to all music, not just some genres, albums, tracks etc.

 

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Some people apparently aren't looking for "accurate"...and in the case that I quoted, that was one of those instances.  It's better to know that up front before making any suggestions.

 

When someone says that they aren't looking for the biggest soundstage possible, that it's "too wide and too tall" with a certain loudspeaker, that's a case of them wanting something that isn't an accurate reproduction of the real thing. 

 

Another instance is where they want the loudspeakers to magically "correct" their music tracks that have been subjected to huge amounts of limiting (clipping--more than half the waveform is clipped)--which sounds very harsh when played back on a good, accurate set of loudspeakers, then that's another case of them saying that they don't want accurate sound.  They instead want loudspeakers that camouflage that clipping (i.e., very low efficiency direct radiators that "round off" the transients--whether it's desirable or not).

 

I find these instances occur fairly regularly with those that listen to music genres that do not approximate an accurate acoustic performance--such as electronica and extremely heavy rock derivatives--to the exclusion of every other genre.  That's what I'm referring to when I say "trying to reproduce an aesthetic".

 

Chris

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16 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Some people apparently aren't looking for "accurate"...and in the case that I quoted, that was one of those instances.  It's better to know that up front before making any suggestions.

There's no such thing as an "Accurate" loudspeaker, since music that is recorded in various spaces with 2 or more microphones cannot possibly represent the 4 dimensions of music generation. Extremes being an acoustic guitar and voices around a campfire, to full Symphony Orchestras, to multi-room/multi miked pop/rock/jazz, to live on stage with PA systems, to fully synthesized music with no microphones.

 

This is why the term "Voicing" is applied by loudspeaker designers, including Klipsch.

 

But we do the best we can with the limits of Physics to create the very best ILLUSION possible that satisfies the specific listener.

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That's a fairly tired argument that you've chosen to inject.  Claude, this is an instance where I don't believe that I need help.  Accurate sound is always defined as "reproducing what the recording has presented--as accurately as possible". 

 

But I believe most here already got that.

 

Chris

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While I see a little (very little) merit to the argument for selecting speakers based on musical preference, I believe a nice sounding speaker should sound nice for all types of music.  

 

My experience is that piano and acoustic guitar are by far the hardest instruments to convey accurately, there is something about the chordal nature and dynamics of those two instruments.  Also, as my sound improves, it is the drums that start to pop out, otherwise they tend to get hidden in the mix.

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6 minutes ago, Racer X said:

I believe a nice sounding speaker should sound nice for all types of music.  

You might be surprised to find that there are many people that really aren't looking for that.  What you described implies accuracy or at least "neutrality of sound quality".  The individuals that I've identified aren't looking for that. 

 

And I believe that we shouldn't be terribly worried about addressing those individuals from this particular forum.  YMMV.

 

Chris

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"Happy [loudspeakers+listening room] are all alike; every unhappy [loudspeakers+listening room] is unhappy in its own way." (With sincere apologies to L. Tolstoy)

 

There are many ways to go wrong with loudspeakers and listening room acoustics, and I think that the two questions posed above begin to highlight a very small subset of those unhappy ones, but there is really one way to get everything right--and I find that few loudspeaker designs really achieve that--far fewer than what "audiophile reviewers" recommend, unfortunately.

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22 hours ago, Chris A said:

"I decided and sold the RF7 IIIs [after you guys basically advised me to keep them over the Cornwall IVs].  Now that all I have to hear is the Cornwall IVs. Flatly, I don't like them."

 

 Sooo everyone here told him to keep the 7's and he didn't and now he's upset because he didn't listen? 

 

When comparing any piece of equipment or speaker to each other a simply A/B test back and forth is useful but not conclusive; sometimes something "new" or "different" will seem better but after awhile may sound worse (or better.) Really you need to listen to each piece for a few days to a week then switch to get a more accurate presentation. 

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1 hour ago, jjptkd said:

Sooo everyone here told him to keep the 7's and he didn't and now he's upset because he didn't listen?...

Uhmmm---no.  Basically, it was the other loudspeaker.

 

1 hour ago, jjptkd said:

Really you need to listen to each piece for a few days to a week then switch to get a more accurate presentation. 

Perhaps. 

 

I've found that any loudspeaker can be dialed-in over time to a room and listening positions, so getting equal time/effort in for each loudspeaker usually doesn't occur in these instances unless significant time with each is expended.  For instance, it took me almost 12 years to really get my left/right loudspeakers (Jubs with TAD 4002s) dialed in correctly.  Once that was done, they provided a totally different listening experience. YMMV.

 

Chris

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1 minute ago, Chris A said:

I've found that any loudspeaker can be dialed-in over time to a room and listening positions, so getting equal time/effort in for each loudspeaker usually doesn't occur in these instances unless significant time with each is expended.  For instance, it took me almost 12 years to really get my left/right loudspeakers (Jubs with TAD 4002s) dialed in correctly.  Once that was done, they provided a totally different listening experience. YMMV.

 

Chris

 

I would think this is not an ideal situation for the OP as he had limited time (I assume?) to decide which speaker to keep with a significant amount of coin being held up in the process. 

 

If it were me I'd want to spend a minimum amount of time with each speaker trying to get them settled best i can with any and all equipment I have and a wide variety of music / sources as possible over the course of at least a few days to a week-- basically get them set as best as possible while listening critically. Once I've established a base line for one speaker go through the same process for the other-- once I've got each speaker set and dialed in as best as possible in a reasonable amount of time spend a few days with each one before switching out to listen to the other, might have to do this a few times to get a real clear picture of the differences or they may stand out right away.

 

I did basically what you suggested in the beginning-- I grabbed onto a pair of Chorus II's as I figured they were my limit in size and cost and more or less built a system around the speakers making changes to everything at first but the speakers-- equipment and source swapping until I found what worked best to my ears in my room, which I found almost all went right out the window the first time I moved and changed rooms.

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Maybe when the Cornwall's have a chance to fully break in, the OP will have a change of

heart and mind.

It is on the one hand easy enough to recc. a speaker from the information provided by a 

prospective buyer. Quite another to fully recc. a speaker without knowing more.

Abit difficult in either case actually.

Maybe some here have been fortunate, as buying speakers out of sight and mind.

Without being in the room itself, it is a wonder when all seems to come together.

Amazing really, there is, at least to me more disenchanted

than there appears to me to be.

Not sure that if I were in sales as an example, would approach

a situation any different than have.

To me, Klipsch just seems to satisfy. As new owners of, for example, may not even stop to consider one would expect to get it right the first time, let alone each and every time.

There are so many variables that can go into the decision process until it appears not as 

simple as it may appear at first.

As good a place to start though. Keeping it simple is likely a worthy goal.

 

 

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23 hours ago, billybob said:

 

"There are so many variables that can go into the decision process until it appears not as simple as it may appear at first. As good a place to start though. Keeping it simple is likely a worthy goal."

 

I’ve read the reviews, heeded advice and listened to systems when presented. It’s been a journey of trial and error for me. Knew very little to nothing about audio in the beginning and still don’t compared to majority on forum. Journey began with Denon and Polk from big box retailer. Stereo bugs hits and buy Bose 901 lifestyle system-return it. Soon after decided I wanted to learn to play guitar. Purchased acoustic then electric guitar & 15-watt tube amp; because read SRV used tube amps, I liked his tone. Was amazed how good and loud the 15wt tube amp sounded. If guitar tube amp sounds good shouldn't a tube stereo amp sound good? Is there such a thing as tube stereo amp? I know I don’t enjoy exaggerated bass. What brand/type of speakers do I need? What are horn speakers? Acquired vintage tube stereo amp and Bozak Urbans-sound good, full, and rich. Could better sound be achieved?  Keep reading/seeing adverts about ‘home-theater’ systems. Purchase Bose lifestyle with 5 mini speakers and subwoofer. I preferred two channel (and later at times three channel) and reconfirmed the bass response I desired. Discover neighbor had high end tube amps & big B&W floor standers. His system sounded good, but it’s not the sound I’m hearing in my head (yes, crazy at this point). Reading, researching continues. What’s this “magic” of tube amps and horn speakers I read about? So begins the auditioning when able, buying, keeping or selling speakers. Klipsch were the keepers. Same with amps and other electronics- audition, buy, keep or sell. 

402’s, Benchmark, First Watt, and D amps have now piqued my interest.

 

23 hours ago, billybob said:

 

 

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On 8/30/2021 at 7:05 AM, Chris A said:

That's a fairly tired argument that you've chosen to inject.  Claude, this is an instance where I don't believe that I need help.  Accurate sound is always defined as "reproducing what the recording has presented--as accurately as possible". 

 

But I believe most here already got that.

 

Chris

As if most people here don't already "get" your other arguments as well. "Tired" could be used for some of yours as well. You missed the main point in the last sentence that begins with "BUT" which pretty much wipes out anything that is ever said before it, including my own prior words.

 

The only area I see where you need help, is how to avoid pissing people off in the process of posting your, otherwise good, contributions here. Everyone, including me, takes a turn sitting in the a$$hole chair. However I try real hard never to stay in it too long. Hope you can do the same.

 

"we do the best we can with the limits of Physics to create the very best ILLUSION possible that satisfies the specific listener."

 

I also want to point out that putting people down who actually invested in a superior design from the original creator, rather than copy it's fundamentally good attributes, and trying to make them work on a Jubilee, in a convoluted fashion, is not the be all/end all of audio. The word "tired" can apply to a mirror reflection also.

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13 hours ago, Subway said:

 

I’ve read the reviews, heeded advice and listened to systems when presented. It’s been a journey of trial and error for me. Knew very little to nothing about audio in the beginning and still don’t compared to majority on forum. Journey began with Denon and Polk from big box retailer. Stereo bugs hits and buy Bose 901 lifestyle system-return it. Soon after decided I wanted to learn to play guitar. Purchased acoustic then electric guitar & 15-watt tube amp; because read SRV used tube amps, I liked his tone. Was amazed how good and loud the 15wt tube amp sounded. If guitar tube amp sounds good shouldn't a tube stereo amp sound good? Is there such a thing as tube stereo amp? I know I don’t enjoy exaggerated bass. What brand/type of speakers do I need? What are horn speakers? Acquired vintage tube stereo amp and Bozak Urbans-sound good, full, and rich. Could better sound be achieved?  Keep reading/seeing adverts about ‘home-theater’ systems. Purchase Bose lifestyle with 5 mini speakers and subwoofer. I preferred two channel (and later at times three channel) and reconfirmed the bass response I desired. Discover neighbor had high end tube amps & big B&W floor standers. His system sounded good, but it’s not the sound I’m hearing in my head (yes, crazy at this point). Reading, researching continues. What’s this “magic” of tube amps and horn speakers I read about? So begins the auditioning when able, buying, keeping or selling speakers. Klipsch were the keepers. Same with amps and other electronics- audition, buy, keep or sell. 

402’s, Benchmark, First Watt, and D amps have now piqued my interest.

 

 

Wow,what a journey! Thanks for that. While at it, may as well speak about perfection and the chase. Think some of us are satisfied with just acceptable sound reproduction and others still going for it. Sounds like you are on the right path.You and I already have crossed paths in our similar tastes in music.

It is a worthwhile pursuit, audio systems. Some are passionate to the point of seeming to argue/discuss as much.

Thinking that there are audiophile types at work here.

Bystanders like myself, at times really enjoy the back and forth.

Why even a topic one may think is harmless can at times become to the casual viewer a new opportunity to learn.

Still dreaming here...

Peace @Subway...

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