The Speaker Formerly Known As Klipsch

[Racer X]

11 hours ago, dwilawyer said:

It's not understood? Same subject, new thread. 

 

Why not simply post you original post in the thread you created on the exact same subject?

 

There didn't seem to be much discussion. 

 

Or is it that you have an agenda.

 

I always get concerned when someone says they plan to leave. Without exception that has always ended with a dramatic swan dive off of a 10 story building. 

 

Hope you stay, hope you share, hope you engage in friendly dialogue. 

 

However, like Klipsch speakers, a friendly, respectful forum isn't for everyone. 

Hmm, I believe I had two different titles and two different intents.  You have confused the waters.

 

Also your comment "Without exception ....   very odd, and perhaps prescient.

 

And you seem to contradict yourself repeatedly here in the same sentence.

 

And you call yourself a lawyer....

[ClaudeJ1]

3 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

Claude, you seem to think this was directed at you for some reason. Believe me you are not the only person who has changed the taps on an autoformer (for whatever reason)

It was simply a generic response to a generic comment using my own Specific example of creating a true improvement, using as many genuine old Klipsch parts as possible, on some 44 year old Walnut Klipsch boxes I got on Ebay.

 

About 10 years ago, I bought and tested a bunch of Tweeter Compression drivers from Parts Express, and the B&C DE-10 came out the winner. I used 4 of them (2x2 configuration) on top of my K-402's with K1133's on top of various bass horns, until I found the B&C DE-250. My goal, at the time, was to match the 110 db/Watt sensitivity of the Midrange so I could use tweeters without padding down the K1133. Something that I finally achieved, since using a K510 would have been way OVERKILL for home use (Roy's own comment in 2007). I was sold on B&C technology as being superior. This is especially true after I went to Klipsch HQ in Indy in 2008,  and Trey Cannon was curving a bunch of old K-77's in the chamber that showed too much rolloff. It seems all the driver companies make products that are competitive with B&C Technology. The state of the art in compression drivers has evolved nicely, especially from Celestion, but I digress.

 

I SPECIFICALLY named my creation a "Super Heresy" because of the Super Tweeter I used, in order to give full differentiation from the Factory Klipsch products. 60 years is a long time and that K-77 was a pretty tired choice that needed retirement, except for the hard core Klipsch purists who own zero tools.

 

Note that Klipsch Production has been updated to include a much Better tweeter that what they had before, and raising the price of the Heresy by 50% to cover it the new, improved design. Cutting a rectangle for a plastic flared port did not add as much to production cost as the new Klipsch Tweeter did. Since the new Klipsch Tweeters are not available for the original PWK designed Heresys, what other choice did I have to make a measurable and listenable improvement? 100 pairs of ears and counting can't be that wrong can they?

 

Lots of people were buying Heresy's at the time and parting them out on Ebay and still do.

 

However, the benefit to Klipsch as a company, is they have made the Heresy IV a much better speaker than before, at a price which is still affordable at $3,000 in these inflated times, and now the used price of a complete old Heresy (not parted out) is higher than it's ever been, and still worth it.

 

The way I see it, it's a win-win-win from any angle when it comes to better sound for the money.

 

 

[ClaudeJ1]

8 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

Actually Paul klipsch said that....and I whole heartedly agree with him. 

I do recall also, that he didn't like L-pads, and wrote a published article about it. PWK wholeheartedly practiced what he preached, now didn't he?!

[Subway]

Barney says, " Making New Friends is So Much Fun!"

[KT88]

Now quite independently of the technical and ethical pros and cons of the modifications. Why does this topic come up again and again? From my point of view, there are a few main reasons for this (among possibly others). One is the enormous longevity of Klipsch products.With most other companies and their products, it would hardly be worthwhile to modify, update, upgrade or simply (as I am currently trying to do) restore a 20 to 60 year old speaker to original technical condition. The models of other brands are not worth it or they are simply scrapped.  Of course there are exceptions like old Tannoy, Altec, Rogers, Quad and a few other brands...or whatever brand you love since your youth.
The second reason is the largely very modular construction of Klipsch Heritage products...then and now. This allows/ or leads to temptation, changes, replacement, renewal, on the one hand in the drivers, the midrange and tweeter horns, the drivers, as well as the crossover or the cabinet.
But also this modular design is an essential and very professional advantage of Klipsch Heritage products that most other manufacturers can not share.
Thirdly, it is this impressively long period of production of models whose continuous development can be called evolutionary - in conjunction with the model consistency.
If both old and new Klipsch loudspeakers were not so durable, we would not be having this whole, sometimes difficult, discussion.

 

Manufacturers can handle user modifications differently. I know two cases quite well and I can understand both attitudes of the respective companies. Morgan and Klipsch. There are similarities in that the products have been built for an equally long time, at least if we start with 1950 (Morgan dates to 1909). With Morgan, it was always the case earlier that literally every owner had individualized the car. The manufacturer was relatively indifferent to that. It can even be said that US importer Bill Fink put an off-company Corvette engine running on propane gas in the Plus8, helping to keep Morgan, which is doing well today, afloat in the 1980s.
It has always been Morgan's tradition that it was in the hands of the owner that the cars really got good. I have been on the Morgan forum for 12 years and we exchange ideas about other shocks, sport manifolds, carbs or  ECUs, etc. In the end it is a better Morgan than shipped from the factory. At least this is true for all traditional models built up to two years ago. 

 

Klipsch paradoxically has a problem with the longevity of its products when the company insists on unconditional authenticity. I can very well understand what the intention of Klipsch and Roy is. All products are a testimony to their respective eras. I personally also see it that way. But there are reasons why some Klipsch friends like to modify so much. In addition to all of the above that concern the product (modular, durable, etc.), there are the motives of the users that fit these characteristics of Klipsch products. Interest in changing the sound, the hope of an upgrade, the urge to play, the pride of adding something personal to the Klipsch product. And sometimes, one must also take seriously and respect, the financial possibilities that someone has.
I don't begrudge anyone the joy of improving their 50-year-old Klipsch horn e.g. with different tweeters etc. but they could never spend $18,000 on speakers today. I think this is an important social aspect. 

 

These people would perhaps react very hurt if their pride and joy were taken away from parenthood. But also everyone else who could afford to buy new Klipsch Heritage might be offended if they modify older models and are also deprived of parenthood.

Again, I understand that Roy does not want historical products to be "watered down" or for users to blindly modify anything that was really not intended by Klipsch (as a company and as a person).

I think some aspects can not easily become harmonized.

But what I would like to see as the least is that we continue to treat each other respectfully in the forum and refrain from personal attacks with the intention of offending or provoking. Some reality is given and we have to respect the view of Roy/Klipsch. BTW he never says that it is forbidden to make modifications, it is just so that he says it is no longer a Klipsch product in the intentional way. 
One reason may be that if the fingerprint of the sound is drifting away, it is no longer a Klipsch product in his view. But the speaker has nevertheless the same look, the same badge, looks like a Klipsch speaker but the fingerprint of the sound means much more to Roy than the look. 

 

Perhaps my concluding sentence sums up the irreconcilable parts of the controversy very briefly:

Whatever a modification does, from Roy's point of view, a sound modification (or a part modification) is a misleading irritation because it is no longer consistent with the Klipsch brand's sonic intent (of the given decade)
If you take this definition seriously then it means that it doesn't even matter if more people like the modified speaker better than the original.

This should be a comfort to all those who modify their Klipsch speakers, even when they know what they are doing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnJ]

Insanity is repeating the same actions, and expecting different results so this is it for me.

 

@ClaudeJ1, sorry I dragged you into this. Those excellent speakers are the only modded ones I've owned and they served a specific purpose well for me.

 

@KT88 Some good points there. From what I've seen what our @Chief bonehead Klipsch Engineer asks is simply do not call it a Klipsch loudspeaker anymore if you modify, he's been very consistent.

 

Could the op have researched before he obtained the speakers, to learn if they could fulfill his expectations?

 

Could the op have posted a question as others have? I got xx speaker, it's not sounding like what I expected. Could you offer any advice?

 

This alone would have immensely changed what has come from this. Placement of a high performance Klipsch set of speakers can and will change it's sound. The ideal sound reproduction may be dependent on distances, corner placement, dampening of a sparse or harsh room... etc. If you've tried these important steps, enlighten us. I'm sure these same folks will help you out!

 

Then stating that the makers of a product "did it all wrong"?

Not sure it's advisable to cop an attitude when one of them objects and or corrects cordially.

 

 

[ClaudeJ1]

56 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

@ClaudeJ1, sorry I dragged you into this. Those excellent speakers are the only modded ones I've owned and they served a specific purpose well for me

You did no such thing. I volunteered. So no sorrys necessary here.

 

My BFF, Architect, Home Builder and Excellent Speaker Builder of all type but Horns, suggested I call my famous Modification a "Heretical Heresy." This would have made it more true, conceptually, but I chose to use the "Super" moniker based on using an non-Klipsch Super Tweeter (which is what it is called in a 3-way speaker) in an otherwise all-Klipsch components, including the box and grilles. So I chose the name Super Heresy because it could have literally been called a Heretical Heresy from a Heretic, which, of course I am not. LOL.

 

I also created the world's first "CornScala" when I was 21, but I never called it anything but a home-made Center Channel until I got Khorns and needed a LaScala to complete my 2PH3 setup that was blessed by Paul Klipsch, since I built the same False Corners and Resistor Box he himself was using at home.

 

At no point did I mention the word "KLIPSCH" in naming my modification/creation. Heresy is a generic term that cannot be trademarked, as far as I know.

 

I fully support Roy's default position in saying "if you change anything, it's no longer Klipsch."

 

None of my creations have ever been called Klipsch EXCEPT to give credit as to where the ideas and realizations came from, PERIOD.

 

Therefore, I feel no gult or shame in my enjoyment of Better Audio. I rest my case, your honor!

 

 

[Racer X]

JohnJ,  Thank you very much for your insight.  The OP is very happy with his speakers and has listend to nothing but Klipsch Heritage his whole audio life.  I am also very thrilled to gather new helpful suggestions to my quest for better sound, and prefer to research quietly and explore for myself rather than open What should I do threads ?  Just thought I would share, then was puzzled by Mr. Delgado's constant refrain, thought I would seek a little clarificatoin from him or others which unfortunately has not been provided by any in my second thread (now combined) even though I thought it was perfectly clear what input, replies I was after.

I merely presented a range of mods mild to wild was hoping y'all could weigh in.  The response has been most puzzling.

 

I feel I was tricked into agreeing withing Preston Tom's you think the engineers screwed up that bad ?  It was never my intention to go there.

I still find it very odd some maintain if I think there is a 6 db misbalance in the voicing in my room to my ears, I am wrong.  How could a speaker by one size fit all to all people ?  How would they know me or my room ?

[Chief bonehead]

43 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You did no such thing. I volunteered. So no sorrys necessary here.

 

My BFF, Architect, Home Builder and Excellent Speaker Builder of all type but Horns, suggested I call my famous Modification a "Heretical Heresy." This would have made it more true, conceptually, but I chose to use the "Super" moniker based on using an non-Klipsch Super Tweeter (which is what it is called in a 3-way speaker) in an otherwise all-Klipsch components, including the box and grilles. So I chose the name Super Heresy because it could have literally been called a Heretical Heresy from a Heretic, which, of course I am not. LOL.

 

I also created the world's first "CornScala" when I was 21, but I never called it anything but a home-made Center Channel until I got Khorns and needed a LaScala to complete my 2PH3 setup that was blessed by Paul Klipsch, since I built the same False Corners and Resistor Box he himself was using at home.

 

At no point did I mention the word "KLIPSCH" in naming my modification/creation. Heresy is a generic term that cannot be trademarked, as far as I know.

 

I fully support Roy's default position in saying "if you change anything, it's no longer Klipsch."

 

None of my creations have ever been called Klipsch EXCEPT to give credit as to where the ideas and realizations came from, PERIOD.

 

Therefore, I feel no gult or shame in my enjoyment of Better Audio. I rest my case, your honor!

 

 

You are a major league boneheaded heretic Claude!!  🤓 (said with affection!!)

[Racer X]

And yes, I have carefully tuned my speaker placement and room treatments.  I do not have the confidence to share, not sure how my experience here would help anyone else.

[Shiva]

After reading most of this thread, I have one main question:  Remind me again:  Racer X,  He was a friend of Speed Racer, yes? 😀

[Racer X]

Um, Racer X is Speed Racer's estranged older brother Rex Racer.  Wikipedia is an excellent source for stuff like this.

[Shiva]

Lol,  Yeah  I knew I could look it up,  seemed more humorous to pose the question instead.     I forgot the brother angle, though I watched them all as a kid. 

[Dave A]

42 minutes ago, Racer X said:

And yes, I have carefully tuned my speaker placement and room treatments.  I do not have the confidence to share, not sure how my experience here would help anyone else.

I went by your profile and nothing is filled out. Don't you have a system to share with us there? We all like to see gear so lets see yours.

[Racer X]

Thanks for your interest.  Of course I have a system and have shared a few pertinent details in my posts, but I prefer to avoid the system list thing.

[Dave A]

Got something top secret there? Why not list the system since system things are pretty much what the forum revolves around one way or another. I always wonder why personal systems are not listed.

[Racer X]

I'll share a brief description of my room treatment:  20' of homemade tube traps 17" diameter deployed in a sideways 8 pattern along the front wall.  Something like this   I = I = I.  There is a floppy plastic diffuser in the tube traps to reflect back some high frequency energy.  The tube traps provide superior bass resonance control, superior bass delineation.  Otherwise a room just tends to be a large bass resonance chamber.

[Racer X]

Well, I find component selection to be very personal and varied.  I've never seen anyone with similar components.  Preferred not be judged there on my preferences and selection.  Fully well recognize the speakers, wires, amps must form a synergistic relationship, not sure what that means or exactly how it is employed, more just a random selection of cool gear one is drawn to.

[Dave A]

Well a famous and well used phrase around these parts is pictures or it did not happen.

[Edgar]

4 minutes ago, Dave A said:

I always wonder why personal systems are not listed.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't want the whole world to know the value of my possessions. No sense inviting trouble.