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Newbie with La Scalas


w30bob
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Pic of stained top???? Those have some kind of finish on them. The problem is you need to find out if it oil,poly,laquer. 

Looks like grill has damage in that pic??

Yes they sold them RAW I have only seen a few that the owner left them that way, They are great looking RAW. You will see RAW Heresy's more often.

The minty k Horns are gonna be more than 3000 i would say. Considering the crazy current price of K Horns these days.  I told my sons when I die if they sell my K-Horns ask 4000 and no less for them. But that was years ago. Now I would tell them 5 to 6 thousand. 

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12 hours ago, w30bob said:

 

 

    I had one small issue that I had to take care of before I bring them into the room that has my primary system.   And that was I found a cat had pee'd on the bottom of one of them.  Didn't catch the odor in the guy's basement who was selling them, but when I brought them into my house.....OMG!  So I did a bit of research on how to neutralize cat pee on wood.  Very interesting stuff, if you're so inclined.  Seems it's an age old problem with the usual ton of solutions listed online.  I have fully 100% eradicated the cat urine, but learned a lot in the past few days.  I should probably put the info in a separate post.......to save anyone else from having the try 50,000 things that don't work.  In the end I did find 2 things that work......well one that works 100% and one that works like 80%....depending on how good your nose is.  All the rest of the home remedies online for dealing with pee on hardwood floors, like vinegar, vinegar and baking soda, Murphy's, etc, flat out don't work.  To be fair it's really a function of the strength of the particular cat's urine.......but the one that got my speaker must have been a super-pee'r.  Long story short the stuff called 'Angry Orange' works.  Period.  Quickly and easily.  I had to pop off the bottom cover of the doghouse to make sure I got it all, but other than dealing with a few stubborn screws with worn heads........that was easy peasy.  Luckily the cat somehow managed to pee on the bottom cover piece of plywood only, and none got inside the front of the doghouse.  I kind of wanted to see what the woofer looked like anyway........so I killed two birds. 

 

Been there done that. I brought home a pair of AR3a years ago that smelled so bad I picked them up with garbage bags. Once home I sprayed them down with pet urine odor eliminator and hosed them off in the driveway. They dried, but still faintly smelled. I sold them with a disclaimer to a happy restorer. I recommend that you paint or poly coat that bottom cover soon to hopefully reduce the smell from comeoing back out. Good luck!

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Those look really good.

 

Just listen, and listen some more. Don't listen loud, they can do that quite well, but can cover up how great they are.

 

The midrange might seem too forward... just listen. Try some good acoustic music which is familiar.

 

Listen a lot.

 

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First, congrats to your new to you LaScalas.

 

Just my very subjective two cents. Islander writes that his tweeters were weaker or not equally loud. His 1974 LS have Alnico tweeters that can lose magnetic energy over the many years. Your 1992 LS tweeters have ceramic magnets that do not weaken. I personally prefer the sound of the alnico magnets in the tweeter for quieter sound levels, but that's another story.

I had Crites CT125 but I returned to the K77. Currently I have the K77 ceramics as an interim solution because my original alniko are being remagnetized and getting new diaphragms. I find that despite some disadvantages, for example a hiss, the K77 (whether alnico or ceramic) fits much better to the overall sound of the LS. Impulses come more in one piece or, for example, an acoustic guitar has more energy in the treble...not because the K77 would be louder than another tweeter but because the radiation pattern is so well suited to the rest of the speaker.

 

Who has old LS, like me (1977) or Islander (1974) had to renew the capacitors because the original ones were in a cooling oil which has leaked. But your 1992 capacitors should still be really good (unless they are electrolytic).

There is a lot of discussion here about the choice of capacitors. Klipsch uses polyester caps up to the very modern models. I went back to polyester caps in my LS after having had polypropylene caps ruefully and happily. You can't say type A is better than type B in isolation. The caps Klipsch used in your xover have very specific values e.g. for ESR which are important for the functioning of the whole network. A supposedly "better" cap can mess up the impedance values of the entire xover. This can turn out well, but you enter the realm of try and error without meaning to. 

My point is that quite a few people believe that the manufacturer would save money exactly on the capacitors and it would be an easy way to improve the performance of the whole speaker by using different caps. Ok, maybe the manufacturer has chosen cost reasonable caps, but he has designed the crossover based on that! At least as serious a manufacturer as Klipsch is. If the caps would have to be renewed I would advise to use the same type...because "better" can be worse. Take the „Q“ of a capacitor. The K400/K401 being a horn likes a smaller Q of the capacitor because it softens the filter curve and the horn does not become shrill in the upper cutoff frequency range. A polypropylene cap has a larger Q than a polyester cap. It is similar with the K77 in the lower cutoff frequency range.

 

In case your xover should use protection diodes for the tweeter, I would take them out of the circuit if you don't want to sound a stadium. Without diodes the speaker sounds silkier and more detailed.

I would loosen all cable contacts at the input and outputs of the xover, clean them with alcohol and tighten them again. This is often a very amazing improvement after all these years.

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7 hours ago, Islander said:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ See what I meant about a rabbit hole?  ^^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

BTW, the mid driver is called the squawker.  Woofer, squawker, tweeter.  That term isn’t widely used anymore, for reasons I don’t understand, but it’s still used happily among Klipsch fans.

When I think of the word squawker, I think of a friends tropical bird. Squaaaaawk.

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Hi Islander........yeah, I've heard and seen the term "squawker" in posts and on crossovers.......but it's so "un-hi fidelty" a word that I have a hard time using it when talking about something that is supposed to sound "good", and not like a bad PA system.  I mean "woof" and "tweet" aren't too bad a descriptor, but I can't imagine the word "squawk" ever had a good connotation, although I've heard things were weird back in the 50's, so who knows.  I'm actually surprised it's lasted this long!  But hey, when in Rome...........so "squawker" it is!

 

thanks,

bob

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I thought I could read it off the La Scala Type AA network in the attached photo.  I was wrong.  IIRC, “Squawker” is labeled on Klipsch networks.  I understand the concern about the term.  I’m so used to hearing and using it, I don’t think of it negatively in an onomatpoeic sense

 

 

 

after.jpg

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6 hours ago, w30bob said:

 I've heard things were weird back in the 50's, so who knows.  I'm actually surprised it's lasted this long!  But hey, when in Rome...........so "squawker" it is!

the term squawker was used by klipsch since the late 40's ,but there is no way of determining if PWK was the First to use the term ,the term SquawK Boxes is another similar term used in the 50-60's 

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The newer type capacitors may well be better than the ones that went into La Scalas in the Seventies.  In my speakers, I’m guessing the exact values were hard to find at the time, so in one position, there were three tin cans, stacked one atop the next, and wired together, to add up to the right number.

 

The problem is that the only external sign of failure that I’m aware of is oil leaking.  Beyond that, a test for Equivalent Series Resistance (ESR) is what’s needed.  If the value is too high, the capacitor is scrap.  However, that test requires a meter that the average audio fan doesn’t have, so that’s why most of us go by the age of the speakers.  It turned out to be right in the case of my speakers, but YMMV.

 

As for “upgrading”, which some think would be a good idea, because the components in our speakers are sometimes not the best available, throwing in a pair of better/more expensive woofers, for example, can often result in disappointment.  PWK was a great audio engineer, in many ways, and one of them was in not wasting any money.  If he could find a decent quality part that was very consistent in performance, and available in the quantities he needed, maybe for years, he’d use it and design the rest of the speaker to work in harmony with it.  That way, he could achieve the performance he wanted, and still keep parts costs low.

 

Some people try to say that, based on the parts list, these speakers should sell for less, but the parts list doesn’t include the engineering time and talent that went into making the speakers what they are.  These are not knockoffs, copies that include only the hardware that you see.  They’re the original item, and every Heritage Series speaker includes some of the genius that PWK brought to the job every day.  That’s priceless.

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Capacitors are a taboo subject of late on this forum since Klipsch now has an authorized dealer selling caps. At least that was what I was told a few months back when one of my post on capacitors was deleted. If one wants to put an old AA crossover back to where PWK designed it one should just use what is in it now, a motor run capacitor. Not motor start but motor run. At least that is what many are saying on this post. Keeping the sound original as designed. Personally being a technician I see this kind of talk as misinformation. A word commonly thrown around nowadays. A cap lets AC signals pass and blocks DC and if any cap does that it should sound the same. Technical talk about what dielectric material used to separate the plates that make a capacitor work will probably be deleted again but in reality what difference should it make the material used to keep the plates separated if it does it job? One person praises what he hears using so and so capacitor does not mean you will hear the same thing. The reason Klipsch probably went back to a cheaper capacitor of late is because they can save money knowing there really is no difference from a polyester cap over the more modern more expensive polypropylene one sound wise. At least that is my opinion no matter what so and so expert at Klipsch has to say. One does not design a crossover for a specific capacitor type period no matter what you hear or think. Technicians designing any electronic device depends more on the specification sheet of any component then any other thing and the truth is most capacitors measure much the same or at least plenty good enough for their intended use.  

 

What difference does it make what type of capacitor is used as long as it sounds good. In short use any film cap from a reputable manufacture you choose unless you believe as one past member that the color of wire tie sounds better over another and can hear the difference. The majority talk of capacitors is just BS for those that have nothing better to do than post on social media sites. 

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34 minutes ago, chassell said:

All of 'em.  Aircraft are given a transponder code to "squawk" while in flight.

Correct.  Aircraft are assigned a specific code to identify that particular aircraft.  It is called "IFF" (Identification Friend or Foe)

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On 9/21/2021 at 11:07 AM, w30bob said:

Sorry.........double post I don't yet know how to delete

 

I don't think it's possible to fully delete posts, so most of us type "Sorry, double post", or just leave a dot (.) when it happens, or when you have second thoughts about your post and would like it to disappear.

 

It is easy to double post sometimes, so it has happened to many of us.  Second thoughts, too.

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1 hour ago, henry4841 said:

Capacitors are a taboo subject of late on this forum since Klipsch now has an authorized dealer selling caps. At least that was what I was told a few months back when one of my post on capacitors was deleted. If one wants to put an old AA crossover back to where PWK designed it one should just use what is in it now, a motor run capacitor. Not motor start but motor run. At least that is what many are saying on this post. Keeping the sound original as designed. Personally being a technician I see this kind of talk as misinformation. A word commonly thrown around nowadays. A cap lets AC signals pass and blocks DC and if any cap does that it should sound the same. Technical talk about what dielectric material used to separate the plates that make a capacitor work will probably be deleted again but in reality what difference should it make the material used to keep the plates separated if it does it job? One person praises what he hears using so and so capacitor does not mean you will hear the same thing. The reason Klipsch probably went back to a cheaper capacitor of late is because they can save money knowing there really is no difference from a polyester cap over the more modern more expensive polypropylene one sound wise. At least that is my opinion no matter what so and so expert at Klipsch has to say. One does not design a crossover for a specific capacitor type period no matter what you hear or think. Technicians designing any electronic device depends more on the specification sheet of any component then any other thing and the truth is most capacitors measure much the same or at least plenty good enough for their intended use.  

 

What difference does it make what type of capacitor is used as long as it sounds good. In short use any film cap from a reputable manufacture you choose unless you believe as one past member that the color of wire tie sounds better over another and can hear the difference. The majority talk of capacitors is just BS for those that have nothing better to do than post on social media sites. 

It's good to hear your refreshing and decisive view on caps. I would like to contribute to your position from my point of view.
The old caps of the original AA xover were motor run caps. I learned that too. But what is important about the xover is not that they were motor run caps, but that PWK found them to sound good and therefore used them. Perhaps the purchase price also played a role. It may also have been that PWK was not so happy with other capacitors in its day in the 50s and 60s. Now it was the case that these motor run caps were polyester caps. The fact that they are dipped in oil for cooling plays a role in their use as MRCs, but not in the xover (except perhaps that the liquid coolant may also dampen vibrations well).

 

I can attest that polyester caps sound much more balanced in my Lascala than polypropylene caps. It is not imagination. The polyester caps sound much like my original motor run caps used to, which have been out for 16 years due to be leaking.
There do seem to be differences, primarily related to the different ESR.


Another hint, who uses motor run caps today as a replacement, e.g. from Genteq, must know that these caps look exactly like the old Aerovox in the tin cans, but they are polypropylene caps.
Maybe someone knows if there were already dry polyester caps around 1950 or 1960...or what alternatives PWK would have had e.g. paper in oil or other caps. I don't religiously follow a precept but I personally felt when listening why I use what I use in caps. I do not prescribe anyone to do the same but I invite everyone to experience the comparison for themselves in the comparative test, it costs fortunately very little

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I've have found that capacitors do sound different despite what was said in my previous post. My thoughts are some roll off the highs more then others just as Bob Crites said when he was alive. I have tried many different caps in my AA's and prefer the sound of motor run caps in my horn speakers along with some Russian NOS PIO caps that were plentiful a few years back on Ebay. Horns tend to be too bright for many including myself and the two I use sound best to my ears in my setup. There are other electronic means to tame too bright sounding speakers but are beyond the means of most that frequent this forum. It is doubtful that any film cap in old crossovers have actually went bad or increased enough with ESR to make any difference in the original sound. There are many technicians restoring old electronic gear that do not replace even the old electrolytic caps unless the ESR is extremely high let alone film caps. Lots of misinformation about caps circulating on social media forums but if someone replaces the caps in old crossovers and are happy with the result I am all for them. Then there are many that have replaced the caps and complain about the sound being way too bright for their taste after doing so. Naturally if an old can cap is leaking it needs to be replaced but other then that if one is happy with the sound the old saying of "if it ain't broke why try and fix it.   

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