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My first La Scalas


pcbiz

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When I replaced the AL crossovers in my first LS pair I owned, I think I was loaned a pair of ALK universals. They sounded great. I kept them long enough to build my own crossovers, the DHA2, which also has a swamping resistor. It also sounded great, and worked very well with the 2A3 SET amps I used for years.When I sold the LS, the new owner had a pair of Deans crossovers, so I kept the DHA2s. That's what I put in the beater pair that I recently gave to my older son.

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20 minutes ago, Marvel said:

When I replaced the AL crossovers in my first LS pair I owned, I think I was loaned a pair of ALK universals. They sounded great. I kept them long enough to build my own crossovers, the DHA2, which also has a swamping resistor. It also sounded great, and worked very well with the 2A3 SET amps I used for years.When I sold the LS, the new owner had a pair of Deans crossovers, so I kept the DHA2s. That's what I put in the beater pair that I recently gave to my older son.

My H1’s have a swamping resistor as well, also based on John’s recommendation.

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1 hour ago, Deang said:

That mod sounds really good. I ran my Heresys with that network for almost a year using a QSC amplifier. Doesn’t that network drop the midrange output a bit - I can’t remember. 

Yep, it really helps to balance things out if the Heresys are up on stands.

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On 12/15/2021 at 12:23 PM, Deang said:

If you are going to

[Moderator Edits and Comments:For the love of Pete!!! I should send you guys (Dean, Henry) "to Guam. After All, this is just [audio]. Not singling out Henry here, I see there was some friendly difference of opinion in the previous page that seems to have led up to this post, but this one's a bit over the line. Additional moderator comments/ in this post below will be in brackets like this one]

 

Dean [SNIP, rest of the sentence deleted. If you quote someone, or if you mention their name you need to be sure what you are saying isn't a personal attack or offensive].

 

You cannot use just a series resistor for attenuation. If you do you will change the impendence the amplifier sees. For instance if you have an 8 ohm speaker and add just a series resistor of say 3ohms for attentuation you now have an 11 ohm speaker. To correct this you have to add a parallel resistor to make a discrete L-pad which all speaker manufacturers to my knowledge now use instead of autotransformers. This is simple ohms law of resistors. Basically what the parallel "swamping" resistor does across the autotansformer of ALK's universal. That is those that do not use a variable L-pad which is what I think you mean by your above statement[ . . . . .] [Rest of sentence deleted]. [Next two sentences deleted as completely unrelated personal BS]

 

Engineers design circuits send them to the factory where the executives hire people off the street who can follow directions and solder to assemble them. That does not mean the assemblers know or understand what is happening in the circuit. [Deleted sentence]

 

The honest truth is that the crossover that came with [these] Klipsch speaker[s] will never fail in your lifetime to provide excellent sound. Simply the truth. As far as replacing capacitors I do not know of a technician or restorer of audio gear that replaces film caps. They simply last for decades and decades without deteriorating or changing value or ESR either to the determent of the sound. The only place you will hear any different is on this forum which was started years ago from those seeking to profit.

 

[Many, many respected and knowledgeable people agree with you on that. One in particular, John Allen (designer and maker of the A-55G driver many here on the Forum love so much) told me exactly that. He apparently has golden ears (numerous stories of him hearing an anomaly of some prototype speaker in the Klipsch lab listening room (something like "sounds like you have a X db dip/hump at about Y Khz") confirmed to be exactly what he thought it was from sweeps in the chamber). I had the pleasure of sitting with him at lunch in 2016 and I asked him after how many years would he recommend changing caps in the Heritage networks he said "never." He said his 40+ year old networks were original and he would never change them because they didn't need changing and it would only compromise the sound.  There are also many, many here that believe exactly the opposite. None of the people on opposite ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between have anything they are selling. They believe what they want to believe, they hear what they hear.]

 

[Comment about ALK's comments on his website. Good grief. ALK has harsh words about everyone, including Roy Delgado (called Roy a liar, in this Forum when Roy was trying to help him understand something). That was why he was asked to leave the first time, which he did. Nobody else had anything to do with that. From there he went to AK, and a couple of other Forums and was promptly banned from those as well. He came back here a few years ago, and I quickly helped him find the door. Many in that thread (about an EE on the East Coast building an amp as I recall, Al came in to attack (bully) him), commented that they would never, ever buy a thing from ALK with the attitude he displayed. For the record, only one person got ALK banned from here, and that was Al. Some people left with him. Oh well.]

 

[By the way, Al went to the first first ever pilgrimage ('04, 05?) and the group of visitors were taken to PWK's house to meet "the man." ALK started asking PWK questions about network designs, and talking about what he was doing, and . . . well, according to two Klipsch engineers who were present, PWK didn't think every much of Al or his thoughts and theories on networks.]

 

[Harsh words by Al are considered by many to be an endorsement].

 

No trauma on my part because I do not depend on this forum to make a profit as you do. I do not understand how the people in charge of this forum can allow this to happen over and over again. I can leave and never look back not needing this forum to profit from it. I am sorry if the truth hurts anyone. 

 

[Not sure what "this" is referring to that happens over, and over again - statements that replacing caps is necessary after X amount of time? That X brand caps are the only way to go? We should lock/delete any posts that say the caps should be replaced? Or just that if they suggest that film caps should be replaced. I have zero technical knowledge, are those those yellow thingys on the wood blocks? Is it ok for people to suggest that those WWII surplus caps that look like tobacco cans and get rusty should be replaced? (Those are the motor run caps  right? PIO?). OK, let's do that. Should I shut down any threads about cables making a noticeable improvement? How about I only allow comments that if you insist on changing your filament caps you can only post a recommendation to give the authorized cap replacement outlet, JEM (which I have pinned and locked to the top of this thread)? 

 

[Or are you referring to the swamping resistor/L-Pad issue naming convention? I can recall many threads about L-pads, some have taken an ugly turn, can never understand why. So we have to try and figure out who is right on that? That ain't ever going to happen with me at the wheel because other than knowing ohms law and what a resistor looks like, I don't know anything about circuits. I suppose I could drag Roy in here to settle the argument, but he will just say you all are boneheads, and neither is right, that Paul said it was a Z.]

 

[If the "this" is that threads/posts on this subject always turn into personal attacks from one person towards another, I will take care of that. Post haste. 

 

[END OF ORIGINAL POST]

 

[The truth is always welcome, along with a difference of opinion, another viewpoint, another approach, or whatever it is, as long as it isn't personal. As long as it doesn't deteriorate into an ad hominem attack when someone doesn't agree with someone else. This is beneath both of you. I have seen both of you, numerous times, provide useful information, and respectfully respond where you have a difference of opinion]. 

 

[Yes, many, many have sold their wares here over the years, that's certainly true. Roy dubbed them "peddlers." Bob Crites, Dean (for at least a time, not sure if he currently is or not), Greg, our amp building friend Craig, several others. Not really a lick of trouble except when if try and sell their speakers on here. The personal stuff just isn't necessary is it? Over a disagreement on a swamping resistor? I'm sure there is more to it to that, and it's entirely possible that Dean had an equally inappropriate personal banter, but I'm not going to go back 7 pages to figure out who started this (if it even started here), but you guys need to get over yourselves. I see that Bruce @Marvel has responded in here and @Edgar, I don't even need to look at their posts, even if they disagree with something, they know how to express it in a respectful manner. They are truly gentlemen, try and model yourselves on them]. 

 

@Deang  and @henry4841 please continue with your opinions on this subject if you wish, just do it without replying, or referring to each other. You can each make your case without dragging the other in to it. @Deang, I'm not going to hunt down posts you may have made that contain personal things aimed at Henry, go back and edit them or delete them to get rid of it please. If either of you have any questions, comments or concerns, please PM me.. We are not going to have any further public comment on this. 

 

Is any of this helpful to the OP? Is he still alive?

 

For Christ's sake it's Christmas, the Holidays. Peace on Earth and Good Will Towards All Men. 

 

P.S. They only thing I abhor more than personal bullshit, is people that get off on watching two guys sling personal arrows at one another. This would not be a good time for those not involved to comment. 

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On 12/16/2021 at 7:46 AM, henry4841 said:

You cannot use just a series resistor for attenuation. If you do you will change the impedance the amplifier sees. For instance if you have an 8 ohm speaker and add just a series resistor of say 3 ohms for attentuation you now have an 11 ohm speaker. To correct this you have to add a parallel resistor to make a discrete L-pad which all speaker manufacturers to my knowledge now use...

 

Yes, the impedance the amplifier sees, changes.

 

I challenge everyone to look at the newer schematics for Heritage and Reference. When you find an L-pad, please let me know.

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1 hour ago, Deang said:

 

Yes, the impedance the amplifier sees, changes.

 

I challenge everyone to look at the newer schematics for Heritage and Reference. When you find an L-pad, please let me know.

Dean post the schematic you are referring to. I suppose the engineers could accomplish what you are saying but for the life of me I cannot understand why the would do so when the industry standard for attenuation for decades is just to use a discrete l-pad circuit. From my limited knowledge of electronics, 50 years or doing repairs of electronic gear, engineers design a crossover lets say for an 8ohm driver and then decided it needs attenuation. If they just add a lets say 8 ohm series resistor and omit the parallel resistor across the driver they have change their design to 16 ohm driver. 8 + 8 equals 16 ohms. But if they use ohms law of resistors in parallel they can add an appropriate parallel resistor to correct the resistance to the desired 8 ohm of the driver. All of this is just simple ohms law. This article explains it better then myself. https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/attenuators/l-pad-attenuator.html 

 

This is the calculator I used years ago when I was playing around with different crossovers for my speakers. https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/DriverAttenuationLPadCircuit/  There are many online for free. 

 

If you know how they attenuated the crossover you are describing without using a discrete l-pad circuit I would like to hear it along with how they did it from you. It was not done by just adding a series resistor but had to be done in the circuit before it. For the life of me I do not understand why an engineer would do such a thing making it more complicated when a simple discrete l-pad circuit works just fine and is much more easy to do. 

 

Also you are showing an old motor run capacitor that has failed mechanically and not electrically. Of course it should be replace if it is leaking. That is the only circumstance I can think of where a film cap would need replacing. 

 

We have drawn the attention of Travis with our back and forth and to me this is not worth it. 

 

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53 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

 

If you know how they attenuated the crossover you are describing without using a discrete l-pad circuit I would like to hear it along with how they did it from you. It was not done by just adding a series resistor but had to be done in the circuit before it. For the life of me I do not understand why an engineer would do such a thing making it more complicated when a simple discrete l-pad circuit works just fine and is much more easy to do. 

 

We have drawn the attention of Travis with our back and forth and to me this is not worth it. 

 

 

My wife says I'm a good mediator 🙂

 

Here are the high pass circuits of the AK-4

 

Mike

 

 

Screenshot (88).png

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OK guys you win and I am wrong and Dean is right as always. But I see no way a 15 ohm series resistor is used for attenuation. No mid driver that I am aware of needs that much attenuation.  Most drivers I have seen are like 108db to 109db at most. A 6 db attenuation would use a 4 ohm resistor. A 9 db value of attenuation requires a 5 ohm resitor. Guys 9db of attenuation would bring a 109 db driver down to 100db but unless I am mistaken the db rating of a K-horn is around 103db so it only needs 6db of attenuation for a 109 db driver to make the mid drive compatible with the bass bins normal 103 db. I gave up trying to find how much attenuation a 15 ohm resistor would be but it would be astronomical. Basically this is where attenuation is needed. In the mid horn and the tweeter section to bring them down to the bass bins efficiency rating.  This is the series resistor only. Forget about the parallel one. You cannot defy the laws of physics when you apply it to electronics guys. If Dean and other members think it can be done who am I to question what they think. I am just going to assume you are like Dean mboxler and believe one can just throw in a series resistor for attenuation and not have a parallel resistor to correct the circuit. A 15 ohm series resistor for attenuation is just not feasible. There is more to this crossover design we are not seeing. From what I understand Klipsch now holds their secrets close and do not share it outside of the company. This is a social media forum and not a technical one so you all can believe what you want. 

 

Guys I am not your enemy. Only posting what I have learned with 50 years of electronic repairs.

 

I am not Deans competition  so there is no need for members to gang up on me. The only authorized dealer for Klipsch crossovers now is JEM Performance Audio. From all accounts he is a technician and not a layman who will repair or replace your crossovers where they will perform as the engineers at Klipsch originally designed them without using exotic parts or replacing parts not needed.

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