Dave A Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 59 minutes ago, babadono said: It's WYE-ER. I hear in CA it is "like wiire dude, totally gnarly" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 1 hour ago, babadono said: It's WYE-ER. I'll take this as a 3 phase pun joke whether that's it's intentions or not 🙃 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 42 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said: Our brains are pretty whacked and placebo is like voodoo. https://youtu.be/M7Hu52vmxE0?t=120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcbiz Posted March 12, 2022 Author Share Posted March 12, 2022 4 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said: https://youtu.be/M7Hu52vmxE0?t=120 I think the AL5 sounds better than my version of the La Scala... but I'm sure it's just a placebo thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 6 minutes ago, pcbiz said: I think the AL5 sounds better than my version of the La Scala... but I'm sure it's just a placebo thing. I am sure in a double blind test the results would be able to show people or yourself can hear the difference between the two versions of speakers. That's something much more dramatic compared to different wire inside a speaker enclosure running less than a few feet. Probably a magnitude 106 difference between the two examples in terms of what could be actually different in order to change the sound we hear. Just the slightly different placement between the two speakers would account for change in sound. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcbiz Posted March 12, 2022 Author Share Posted March 12, 2022 4 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said: I am sure in a double blind test the results would be able to show people or yourself can hear the difference between the two versions of speakers. That's something much more dramatic compared to different wire inside a speaker enclosure running less than a few feet. Probably a magnitude 106 difference between the two examples in terms of what could be actually different in order to change the sound we hear. I know. The video is actually pretty good. In my wiring experiments, I'm just looking for space; I want to hear more of the soundstage. After all, space is the final frontier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Aren’t “tone caps” wired to ground? There are a lot of those videos, I certainly can’t tell the difference. I love DBT, where no one can tell the difference between anything. I don’t think I can put a foot or two of wire in the same context as different capacitors, though I will readily admit that differences in capacitors are often grossly exaggerated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 21 minutes ago, pcbiz said: After all, space is the final frontier. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 22 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said: Aren’t “tone caps” wired to ground? Yes, they are for all intensive purposes a different load in parallel to the input of the guitar amplifier where the pickups are the source that needs to drive both. They shouldn't make a difference that's audible which is pretty much what the test proved, nobody could reliably tell which one is not like the other. 22 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said: I don’t think I can put a foot or two of wire in the same context as different capacitors, though I will readily admit that differences in capacitors are often grossly exaggerated. I agree, apples to broccoli. The sound of capacitors I do believe depends upon the application where yes there can be an audible difference, not a night and day difference but it's possible. Certain applications where there is no way it can make a difference never hold up to blind testing, even where capacitors can make a slight difference will be difficult for most to reliably pick them out in blind testing. There is by far WAY too much mumbo jumbo about capacitors in audiophile world. But i agree it does make for interesting discussions/debates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 6 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said: I was just reading some stuff I said about wire 20 years ago. I'm deleting it as fast as I can. When you spend $1300 on silver cables, let me know. Those were used. Retail was like $3K. Never did the power cord thing. I regained by sanity before that got popular. I had wishful thoughts about power cords, but with all the components it would add up fast, so no go. Then I got lucky. A used system came into a local AV/hi-fi shop, and there was a full set of Cardas Clear and Clear Beyond power cords. When it comes to those prices, buyers are rare, so the cords sat on the clearance table for a week before I spotted them. Some hard bargaining later, I paid $1400 for 6 cords that would normally total up to around $9800CAD, plus tax. My teenage nephew asked, "What? You paid that much for second-hand extension cords?" "Yes, but they're special!", was my reply. That was four 3-meter 10.5 AWG Clear Beyond cords, for the 2 power amplifiers and the 2 subwoofers, and two 3-meter 13.5 AWG Clear cords, one for the AVR and one for the Dx38 processor/crossover. Just right! Could I hear the difference? Yes, standing on my head with one ear plugged. The contrast was between the cords that came in the boxes with those components (which are often described as junk, no matter who's name is on the box), and the premium cords from Cardas. The improvements were mostly in the bass region, and yes, they were really obvious. This really surprised me, because they're not even in the signal path. That said, the improved power in the low end, and the improvements in the dynamic range, were the easiest to spot, and that made sense to me. As it happened, this was a few months after I replaced the K-69-A tweeter drivers with K-691 drivers, and my nephew was there to help with lifting the tweeter assembles down off the La Scala II cabinets and back up after the driver swap. They're not that heavy, but they're big and awkward. I also wanted his young hearing to confirm any differences I might hear between the old drivers and the new ones. The differences in clarity and brightness were obvious to him and pretty clear to me, mostly on the mids and highs, since they were the tweeter drivers. That was two upgrades in two months, to the top and then the bottom of the frequency range. The next one after those was the two subs, which took the system to its present plateau, where it resides happily with me. Well, I'm happy. The stereo is glowing, so that a good sign. That's how I'm reading it, anyway. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 4 hours ago, Crankysoldermeister said: That’s a lot different than very short runs of 16 gauge vs 10 gauge wire. I asked @captainbeefheart last week if hearing a thing that isn’t there makes it real. Our brains are pretty whacked and placebo is like voodoo. How about 15-foot runs of 8 gauge versus 14 gauge? My bi-amped LS2s get 15 feet of 8 gauge for the woofers and 10 gauge for the tweeters. My thinking is that (1) bigger wire carries current with less resistance/impedance, (2) the longer the run, the more it matters, and (2) bigger wire always makes a difference, it's just that with shorter runs and more sensitive speakers, the differences are harder to notice. Also, bigger speaker wires help keep the amplifier's damping factor high, so that it can better control the drivers, resulting in lower distortion and less blurred sound. Imagine the amplifier having to reach through the speaker wires to operate the drivers, and its grip is limited by the diameter of the wires. Do you want the amplifier to be limited to needle nose pliers to grip the drivers, or do you want your amp to have a big pair of Vise Grips? I know what I want! The main parts of our systems are the most expensive, so we've very aware of every dollar we spend on them, but interconnects, power cords, and speaker wires, are much less expensive, so they're one weak link that's often affordable to address. While the improvements that you get from upgrading wires are usually (but not always) less obvious than the ones you get from changing the boxes between the wires, and the really big boxes at the ends of the wires, it doesn't mean that they don't add up, just like every other improvement. As always, synergy is important, financially as well as electronically. Buy smart and buy well. You don't have to be psycho to benefit from psychoacoustics. Happy listening! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcbiz Posted March 12, 2022 Author Share Posted March 12, 2022 On 3/12/2022 at 12:33 AM, Islander said: While the improvements that you get from upgrading wires are usually (but not always) less obvious than the ones you get from changing the boxes between the wires, and the really big boxes at the ends of the wires, it doesn't mean that they don't add up, just like every other improvement. As always, synergy is important, financially as well as electronically. Buy smart and buy well. You don't have to be psycho to benefit from psychoacoustics. Happy listening! Very true. The little sonic upgrade I get from one foot of fat wire to the woofer makes it obvious that the electrons are just happier. It's kind of like owning a German shepherd. Do you think he would prefer your tiny back yard in the city, or the five acres on the lake at your Dad's place? Electrons must roam free! It's definitely more obvious with power cables. A friend of mine brought over some audiophile power cables made by a local electrical engineer. He was certain that I would hear the difference, and buy these cables immediately. I, of course, doubted his claim. After listening for three seconds, my jaw dropped at the sonic improvement. I bought both cables, and called him a week later to buy a third. I got the power. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
314carpenter Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 I'll never understand why so many people in these forums have the inherent desire and feel the overwhelming need to constantly bash others decisions to use certain wires or cables that are very simple in design, and have very low cost differentials. If someone owns a certain speaker brand or model, do these same people go off telling them what their negative opinions are about those previous purchase decisions? Now when a person is asking a specific question about something, what they are saying is that they are now open to listening to our subjective thoughts. When they make a comment about something, they are sharing their views, but not necessarily asking for our opinions about their decisions. When someone says they have their speakers hooked up with 4/0 welding cables, should we be so inclined to tell them the error of their ways? Consider the idea that nobody really cares what we think, just so long as what is being offered it isn't actually detrimental to the drivers, hookups, or the OP's listening experience. It's their stuff, their choice, their money, and they obviously have reasons to do have done it their way. When someone has spent any amount of money more or less than any of us would have, why should we be the ones to tell them how they were wrong? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer X Posted March 13, 2022 Share Posted March 13, 2022 Basically if you've spent less or have smaller wires than mine, you're an idiot. If you've spent more or have larger wires, you're crazy. Apologies to George Carlin.... 3 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Evans Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 On 3/12/2022 at 4:29 PM, 314carpenter said: I'll never understand why so many people in these forums have the inherent desire and feel the overwhelming need to constantly bash others decisions to use certain wires or cables that are very simple in design, and have very low cost differentials. No one bashed anyone on this thread for decisions to use certain wires, cables, or connectors. We doubted the declared amount of sonic improvements from the new wires and connectors changes. I change my wires and connectors to better ones too, but don’t find or believe the high sonic improvements come from that that some declare do, because there’s only so much that can do, unless you replaced old bad wires, connectors, or their connections are bad in anyway, loose, or corroded causing problems. If you come on a discussion forum making claims, there may be some who doubt them and that’s okay and the one making the claims needs to be okay with that too, or can post more proof of their claims. Mr. Paul W. Klipsch had a big yellow button for others claims he doubted and I’d guess willing to discuss them and his own claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
314carpenter Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Evans Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 18 minutes ago, 314carpenter said: Exactly my point. I will never understand why these forums always seem to draw comments like this. Like this? What’s wrong with my comments? They’re not inappropriate. This is a Klipsch speaker discussion forum where we post and discuss post including our opinions. It’s not a comment forum where post are only meant to be read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcbiz Posted March 14, 2022 Author Share Posted March 14, 2022 5 hours ago, soundbound said: I change my wires and connectors to better ones too, but don’t find or believe the high sonic improvements come from that that some declare do, because there’s only so much that can do, unless you replaced old bad wires, connectors, or their connections are bad in anyway, loose, or corroded causing problems. We have a winner! Old bad wires are what my experiments are all about. The old wiring and connectors are wimpy by comparison. I'm not getting high sonic improvements. It's not like changing a crossover. They are small and simple improvements that are very impressive to me. This lets me know I'm moving in the right direction. Lots of little things become one big thing. This is exactly why the new Klipsch lineup uses higher quality interior wiring and connectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted March 14, 2022 Share Posted March 14, 2022 Idontknow...so, let's us perform an autopsy on this speaker...☕ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcbiz Posted March 16, 2022 Author Share Posted March 16, 2022 A number of forum members have told me their best connectors were no connectors; they just screw bare wire to the crossover board. That makes good sense. It's just that my wires are too fat to screw onto the crossover board, so I opted for copper connectors. They definitely give the current a bit more energy. So today I installed the last of my copper connectors on my crossover to doghouse wires. More tiny improvements that add up to big improvements. My first speaker to amp cables (I'm very new to Klipsch and tube amps), were made from these 10AWG copper cables. I built them for my Heresys. I was also pleasantly surprised at what they did for the Heresy's interior wiring. I'm now on my third Klipsch set, these La Scalas, and I'm getting the same good results. However, my first 10AWG speaker cables sound pretty thin compared to these higher quality audiophile cables. They were only about $50 for a pair on eBay. Over the years I've seen this type of audiophile cable installed for interior wiring among the DIY crowd, and now I know why. I won't be doing that myself, as I have other audio experiments to tinker with. For one, I'm still waiting on my ALK CSW-450 crossovers. We shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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