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1975 Heresy I -- WOW!


jcn3

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1 hour ago, jcn3 said:

 

What would make them go flat as a pancake? 

 try to take a closer picture of the capacitor , let's see the brand  of the component - 

 

either way , klipsch OEM capacitors would restore the klipsch sound ...........last year the cost was 10$ plus shipping - ( prices may have gone up )    you can get a quote from @JEM Performance

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thanks so much for the input.  feeling too much like a noob regarding this capacitor situation -- even though i've got an engineering background, i haven't seen an oval capacitor before . . .

 

@Curious_George was absolutely right.  the capacitors are fine.  as you can see in the pic below.  they're cde 2uf 100 vac 10% caps.  nothing special, but they're in good shape and do the job.

 

@Seadog -- the original holes are in the board.  when the oil capacitors were removed and the new caps added, the autotransformer was moved to shorten/simplify the wiring.  whoever did the rewiring did a nice job.

 

@wetowne, @Marvel, and Curious_George -- I had a great conversation with @JEM Performance (thank you so much!) who advised that i do nothing to the speakers.  he said that the k-77 covers have brass in them and (as you called out) that the "fuzz" was just oxidation and nothing to worry about.

 

@geezin' -- you were absolutely right!  i finally got a chance to hook them up. WOW -- i am super impressed!  i put them as close to the corners of my room as i could (while keeping them level) and the bass is MUCH more than i expected.  i'll check out more music, but they seem to cover all but the lowest bass.  not sure i would ever need a subwoofer with them.

 

i have one criticism at this point:  the highs seem to be blurred a bit -- it is most obvious with brushes on drums.

 

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20211102-105759.jpg

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  • jcn3 changed the title to 1975 Heresy I -- WOW!
4 minutes ago, billybob said:

 Cool... enjoy!

Some expect no bass after reading abit on the forum.

Enjoy the bass. I do...

 

 

agreed -- i have listened to some of the new heritage speakers and was familiar with what to expect with these 45 year old heresys.  the heritage series just doesn't have bloated, fat bass -- it's fast and crisp and deeper than you think.  was blown away by the bass in songs like Bad Guy by billie eilish (the version with justin bieber) -- could even feel it through my chair in the seat of my pants!

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2 minutes ago, Curious_George said:

 

It could be that the tweeters had a hard life and now the diaphragms need to be replaced or it is the natural roll-off of the tweeter you are hearing. 

 

the tweeters do a nice job on everything else -- this was just one little thing i noticed.  i'm comparing relative to my kef reference 1 speakers that are very detailed while also having nice warmth.

 

so comparing these heresys to the reference 1s and not finding much to complain about is quite a compliment to the heresys!

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jcn3, my humble 2 cents.
First of all you have acquired fantastically preserved speakers. Congratulations.
Everyone has their own personal opinion. My advice is that you leave the Heresy as they are. At least for the first time of listening. Let your ears get used to them. 
About the yellow capacitors. Usually there were motor run capacitors at the time of production. Most likely the oil leaked out of the sheet metal cases at some point and they were replaced. Your yellow capacitors are most likely polyester types. That is exactly what Klipsch uses today on new Heritage Speakers. It is what you would get if you bought matching Klipsch caps today, from JEM for example. They (the smaller values like 2 mF) are flat even when they are new. Don't be fooled into buying supposedly "better" capacitors. Roy Delgado, Klipsch's chief engineer for the Heritage Series recommends your polyester types. These caps keep your crossover electrically balanced. There are more modern types of caps but they don't necessarily harmonize with your horns and their drivers. Better" can be worse.

 

I admire your bass speakers. It looks like they have Alnico magnets. Protect and keep them like a treasure.

If you wanted to change anything at all about the Heresy 1 then I would advise you to do it only in the direction of originality.

In my opinion, please do not change speaker drivers. Your Heresy 1 is special because all three speakers have Alnico magnets. There are weak points compared to modern tweeters. But there are also strengths that modern tweeters can't match.The K77s can sound a bit metallic in some recordings. But they have soul. The music flows straight to your heart. And they have a wavefront that matches the rest of the speaker seamlessly. For example, impulses from an acoustic guitar or a singer's voice appear "of a piece" along with the other drivers.

 

I want to share what I did with my 1977 Lascala. A similar case. The tweeters and midrange drivers are the same as in your Heresy 1. After trying modern polypropylene caps I went back to polyester ruefully. OK there will be other good and especially electrically fitting caps but then mostly eccentrically expensive new paper in oil types. It depends on the ESR and that is with polyester types comparable with the old original tin cans. Because those were also polyester types.

After trying a more modern tweeter I am remorsefully returned to the original Klipsch K77 Alnico. The same tweeter you have with the round magnet. It has magical properties. I currently have 1981 K77M ferrite tweeters installed. But only as an interim solution because my original K77 are being restored. They finally come back next week after three months.

 

Why did I have them restored: I wanted the restorer to put in new diaphragms just for peace of mind. He tried it on one of the two tweeters. The result was no difference. So I keep the original diaphragms. The most important point of the restoration is another one. As much as I value Alnico magnets, they have a weak point. Over the decades they can lose magnetic power. This means that the tweeter will become quieter, but more importantly, it will no longer play higher frequencies as the magnetic force weakens. Some old Alnico K77s just reach 12,000 Hz, which is a bit too low. In my case the difference to the newly magnetized power was not too big. But still 1.5 dB the restorer told me yesterday. That already means a loss of treble. You can hardly hear the difference of 1.5 dB. But in relation to the rest of the other drivers in a system you can hear it exactly.

That's why I can't wait until the K77s finally return at the end of the week. The interim K77Ms were less musical (for me personally). The whole speaker seems flatter and more two-dimensional.

 

In my case, it was a little different with the midrange driver. I had read various articles about it here in this forum. Its diaphragm hardens (or becomes too soft?). Whatever the effect is that it sounds thinner than 44 years ago.  I had ordered new diaphragms from Michael Crites and it was significantly worth replacing them. The K55V sound much silkier and more relaxed. They have more authority in the lower frequency ranges. BTW their magnets I would like to have magnetized as well. But because I have no replacement for them I have to live a few weeks without the Lascala. Its the next project.

 

An important point! The K55V driver is screwed to the horn of your Heresy1. Between the throat of the horn and the driver is a rubber ring that perfectly seals the pressure. This rubber ring is very important for the sound of the midrange horn. But after 46 years it will be totally porous and hardened. This was also the case with me. Michael Crites sells new rubber rings. 

Why do Alnico magnets lose power? By heat or by hard mechanical impacts or by strong magnets which are in direct proximity, e.g. if one stores the Alnicos in wrong neighborhood of other magnets.

But there is another reason...unfortunately...and that is simply that they are played. The magnetic field that is evoked in the voice coil to drive the diaphragm unfortunately weakens the permanent Alnico magnet. This is the case with 46 year old speakers if they have always been played (which is otherwise a good thing.). I heard a story when JBL had big problems with Alnicos. They had sold drivers for guitar amps and Fender Rhodes in the 70s. These became quieter and quieter with the loud use. What does the musician do? He compensates by turning the amp louder. In the end, the voice coils were burned. OK we do not operate our Klipsch speakers so loud just because of their great efficiency.

 

If you know a shop that can remagnetize Alnicos, have it done. Not everyone can do it. Here is the description of my restorer, just use google translator.

https://www.lautsprecher-manufaktur.de/index.php/werkstatt/reconing-sp-1327173451

 

If you like your Heresy1 the way they are, don't do anything for now. Actually, my message is, only do something if you have to, to restore the originality. And do not go astray. One is just in such a forum like this (which is a really good forum!) here quickly tempted to change something just to change it.

 

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1 hour ago, KT88 said:

jcn3, my humble 2 cents.
First of all you have acquired fantastically preserved speakers. Congratulations.
Everyone has their own personal opinion. My advice is that you leave the Heresy as they are. At least for the first time of listening. Let your ears get used to them. 
About the yellow capacitors. Usually there were motor run capacitors at the time of production. Most likely the oil leaked out of the sheet metal cases at some point and they were replaced. Your yellow capacitors are most likely polyester types. That is exactly what Klipsch uses today on new Heritage Speakers. It is what you would get if you bought matching Klipsch caps today, from JEM for example. They (the smaller values like 2 mF) are flat even when they are new. Don't be fooled into buying supposedly "better" capacitors. Roy Delgado, Klipsch's chief engineer for the Heritage Series recommends your polyester types. These caps keep your crossover electrically balanced. There are more modern types of caps but they don't necessarily harmonize with your horns and their drivers. Better" can be worse.

 

I admire your bass speakers. It looks like they have Alnico magnets. Protect and keep them like a treasure.

If you wanted to change anything at all about the Heresy 1 then I would advise you to do it only in the direction of originality.

In my opinion, please do not change speaker drivers. Your Heresy 1 is special because all three speakers have Alnico magnets. There are weak points compared to modern tweeters. But there are also strengths that modern tweeters can't match.The K77s can sound a bit metallic in some recordings. But they have soul. The music flows straight to your heart. And they have a wavefront that matches the rest of the speaker seamlessly. For example, impulses from an acoustic guitar or a singer's voice appear "of a piece" along with the other drivers.

 

I want to share what I did with my 1977 Lascala. A similar case. The tweeters and midrange drivers are the same as in your Heresy 1. After trying modern polypropylene caps I went back to polyester ruefully. OK there will be other good and especially electrically fitting caps but then mostly eccentrically expensive new paper in oil types. It depends on the ESR and that is with polyester types comparable with the old original tin cans. Because those were also polyester types.

After trying a more modern tweeter I am remorsefully returned to the original Klipsch K77 Alnico. The same tweeter you have with the round magnet. It has magical properties. I currently have 1981 K77M ferrite tweeters installed. But only as an interim solution because my original K77 are being restored. They finally come back next week after three months.

 

Why did I have them restored: I wanted the restorer to put in new diaphragms just for peace of mind. He tried it on one of the two tweeters. The result was no difference. So I keep the original diaphragms. The most important point of the restoration is another one. As much as I value Alnico magnets, they have a weak point. Over the decades they can lose magnetic power. This means that the tweeter will become quieter, but more importantly, it will no longer play higher frequencies as the magnetic force weakens. Some old Alnico K77s just reach 12,000 Hz, which is a bit too low. In my case the difference to the newly magnetized power was not too big. But still 1.5 dB the restorer told me yesterday. That already means a loss of treble. You can hardly hear the difference of 1.5 dB. But in relation to the rest of the other drivers in a system you can hear it exactly.

That's why I can't wait until the K77s finally return at the end of the week. The interim K77Ms were less musical (for me personally). The whole speaker seems flatter and more two-dimensional.

 

In my case, it was a little different with the midrange driver. I had read various articles about it here in this forum. Its diaphragm hardens (or becomes too soft?). Whatever the effect is that it sounds thinner than 44 years ago.  I had ordered new diaphragms from Michael Crites and it was significantly worth replacing them. The K55V sound much silkier and more relaxed. They have more authority in the lower frequency ranges. BTW their magnets I would like to have magnetized as well. But because I have no replacement for them I have to live a few weeks without the Lascala. Its the next project.

 

An important point! The K55V driver is screwed to the horn of your Heresy1. Between the throat of the horn and the driver is a rubber ring that perfectly seals the pressure. This rubber ring is very important for the sound of the midrange horn. But after 46 years it will be totally porous and hardened. This was also the case with me. Michael Crites sells new rubber rings. 

Why do Alnico magnets lose power? By heat or by hard mechanical impacts or by strong magnets which are in direct proximity, e.g. if one stores the Alnicos in wrong neighborhood of other magnets.

But there is another reason...unfortunately...and that is simply that they are played. The magnetic field that is evoked in the voice coil to drive the diaphragm unfortunately weakens the permanent Alnico magnet. This is the case with 46 year old speakers if they have always been played (which is otherwise a good thing.). I heard a story when JBL had big problems with Alnicos. They had sold drivers for guitar amps and Fender Rhodes in the 70s. These became quieter and quieter with the loud use. What does the musician do? He compensates by turning the amp louder. In the end, the voice coils were burned. OK we do not operate our Klipsch speakers so loud just because of their great efficiency.

 

If you know a shop that can remagnetize Alnicos, have it done. Not everyone can do it. Here is the description of my restorer, just use google translator.

https://www.lautsprecher-manufaktur.de/index.php/werkstatt/reconing-sp-1327173451

 

If you like your Heresy1 the way they are, don't do anything for now. Actually, my message is, only do something if you have to, to restore the originality. And do not go astray. One is just in such a forum like this (which is a really good forum!) here quickly tempted to change something just to change it.

 

 

i cannot tell you how much i appreciate your very thoughtful reply -- it is rare to have someone take the time to be so articulate.

 

i must say i find my heresys to be wonderful.  while they don't technically match up against my kef reference 1s, they do have an emotion that is rare and needs to be preserved.  they'll be used a lot in their spot in a condo we have recently purchased.

 

my conversation with @JEM Performance convinced me to leave them as they are -- that the caps are the same as he would have specified; that unless it sounds like the k-77s have reduced output (i don't hear that they do) that they're fine; that gaskets are old but aren't cracked so are doing their job as intended.

 

just one listen convinced me to not consider other more "invasive" changes -- like adding a port and changing the woofers -- because they sounded great as they are.

 

i did rub them down with some lemon oil today to clean them up a bit.  the cabinets are now even more beautiful than in the pictures i posted.

 

my big decision now is what amp to use to drive them.  my jc-5 made them sing, so option one is a parasound a23+.  option 2 is to make a couple of amp camp amps to give some class a a go.

 

again, thanks so much for the time you took on your post!

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On 11/2/2021 at 5:58 PM, jcn3 said:

 

i cannot tell you how much i appreciate your very thoughtful reply -- it is rare to have someone take the time to be so articulate.

 

On 11/2/2021 at 5:58 PM, jcn3 said:

again, thanks so much for the time you took on your post!

Just a congratulatory "good luck" with your new Heresys, jcn3 and a compliment to another forum member: When I posted seeking input in my search for a tube type amplifier KT88 was kind enough to share the same kind of thoughtful audio wisdom displayed here. As a newbie I found the advice both interesting and helpful; an enlightening experience. And, being a somewhat ignorant newbie I had-other than a sincere thank you-almost nothing to offer in return-except maybe a turn on to one of my favorites: an old, rather obscure, American blues/rock group, The Electric Flag. I recommend their music to you, too, jcn3. Try "A Long Time Comin'". It's great Heresy music; like it was made for those speakers. "KT" might agree-and that would be a pretty good endorsement.

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On 11/2/2021 at 11:49 AM, jcn3 said:

 

the tweeters do a nice job on everything else -- this was just one little thing i noticed.  i'm comparing relative to my kef reference 1 speakers that are very detailed while also having nice warmth.

 

so comparing these heresys to the reference 1s and not finding much to complain about is quite a compliment to the heresys!

I would splurge on new  Klipsch capacitors , by the way , the Heresy 1 is in another league than your Kef Reference 1 ,  you have the K55V and the K77  Alnico drivers -

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1 hour ago, Area 51 said:

And the K77 is highly desirable while the K77M: not so much? 

 

In my experience they are indistinguishable.  

 

Keep in mind, while Klipsch sourced T-35s from EV, they are said to have measured them, labeling the best as K-77s while returning the losers to EV to be sold as T-35s.  Do you really think the same company that rejected some T-35s for subtle differences would replace Alnico K-77s with K-77Ms if they were perceptibly inferior?

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Nice to see Heritage speakers appreciated for how good they really are. While I don't own any yet I've heard them. My ears are old and the differences between old and new may be lost on them. A nice set of Heresy like yours is what I seek. And maybe a pair of Belle.....Klipschorns....LaScala. Well you know how it is.

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1 hour ago, DizRotus said:

Do you really think the same company that rejected some T-35s for subtle differences would replace Alnico K-77s with K-77Ms if they were perceptibly inferior?

No, I don't really think. Really, I don't. I didn't mean to offend anybody. I'm asking because I don't know. I got the impression from a couple of things I read that the K-77s might be preferred by some over the K-77Ms. So, I asked. I have come seeking wisdom. Thanks for allowing me to benefit from your experience. 

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3 minutes ago, Area 51 said:

No, I don't really think. Really, I don't. I didn't mean to offend anybody. I'm asking because I don't know. I got the impression from a couple of things I read that the K-77s might be preferred by some over the K-77Ms. So, I asked. I have come seeking wisdom. Thanks for allowing me to benefit from your experience. 

Yes maybe a little light shed on 5 watt tweeters.

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2 hours ago, geezin' said:

My ears are old and the differences between old and new may be lost on them. A nice set of Heresy like yours is what I seek. And maybe a pair of Belle.....Klipschorns....LaScala. Well you know how it is.

It's good to hear that, geezin. My ears are old, too, and yes, I know how it is! I'm back after being away from audio for quite a while so I'm experimenting with as much as I can get my hands and ears on to try to learn what I want. Earlier I quoted Walter Egan, "and the joy is in the chase" and a Grateful Dead line, "I might be going to hell in a bucket but at least I'm enjoying the ride" because these lyrics seem appropriate to my geriatric audio adventure. What are you listening to, geezin? 

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