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Cables made a difference


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8 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

Well engineered systems are exactly where good cables are needed

 

Not exactly.  And I hear this argument very often that if you don't hear a difference in cables then "your system is not resolving enough" which may or may not be the case, most likely not.

 

 

There are some major issues I do not expect non-engineers to understand, one is phase margin. Amplifiers are tested on resistive loads which do not tell the whole story, speakers are not resistive loads, they do have a DC resistive element to them but this is only one variable of the complete speaker model. The phase margin of an amplifier can be reduced to instability on reactive loads like real speakers and yes even extremely expensive amps or well regarded amps can have this issue. When I say "well engineered system" I mean not someone that purchased high quality gear and installs it themselves, I am talking about an engineer that sets up the entire system and validates performance.

 

Speaker cable manufacturers are making the "cable sound" issue more compounding with the fact that they know MANY amplifiers DO NOT have networks to keep loading flat, speaker coils increase impedance with frequency, this leads to loading issues and phase/gain margin issues. Speaker cable manufacturers are hiding an RC zobel network inside their cables to change the loading characteristics of the speakers which can definitely account for a change in sound. You are not hearing the difference in a conductor or the conductor material as those properties are extremely small but you can get a cleaner/smoother high frequency response with these added networks so that is what you are hearing. This goes back to a well engineered system, unless one knows what to look for or test for when setting up systems you wouldn't know if you need a zobel network. Some good amplifiers already have them but many do not. It is good practice to compare input to output signals from an amplifier driving loudspeaker systems with real music playing, this gives great insight to what is actually happening between the two. I am certain these networks built into many of these aftermarket expensive speaker cables is what people are hearing. Anybody can add these to their own system for a couple of dollars, you do not need to spend thousands of dollars.

 

Without the networks a cable is modeled as series DC resistance, series inductance, and parallel shunt capacitance (parallel to load). No matter what cable you choose these variables change very slightly. I have measured many cables in real world and also have used these numbers to use simulation software to help predict cable behavior. The longer the speaker cable the more these variables can possibly alter the sound but for the most part with normal to short length cables the difference is so small you cannot hear any difference but start to get into slightly longer cable runs and these variables can start to show losses or change phase/gain margin.

 

There is a simple solution for the average audiophile, use true balanced/differential interconnects from source to amplifier, these will be the longest runs in length. Place your mono amplifiers as close as possible to the speaker binding posts to keep speaker wire as short as possible, mine are maybe 18" maximum length, this makes the variables moot and they cannot really change the sound being such small values of DC resistance, inductance and capacitance. I find this practice is by far the easiest way to get great results and remove cabling from the equation.

 

 

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19 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:

I firmly believe cables make very little difference, specifically interconnects. Speaker cables more so and I am very interested in easily figuring out the differences, usually geometrical differences sometimes insulation. Of course true for all types is length and diameter.

As a german private audio equipment cable manufacturer, I produce several hundred speaker cables, RCA cables as well as power cables every year.

If my HiFi friends didn't hear any acoustic improvements on their systems, I certainly wouldn't be as successful. Should they all be wrong ?

Here´re some rewies ..

Loudspeaker cables

* Since I have been using your cables, my amplifier has been able to really energize the loudspeaker .They now sound much more dynamic and resolve the entire frequency spectrum much more beautiful.

* Since I use your speaker cables I have a much larger sound stage in the room. They now sound much more dynamic and resolve the entire frequency spectrum much better.

* Since I use your speaker cables I have a much larger stage in the room, the bass, the midrange and the treble are much more dynamic.

* With your speaker cables I no longer have to turn up the amplifier so far, I can now listen to music even quietly much better

 

 

 

 

Power Cords

* My amplifier has gained in dynamics and sovereignty, which is incredible and would not have thought this possible

* The harsh highs from my horn speakers are now completely gone. Now my horn speakers play silky smooth and with quite strong bass foundation.

* I always had a very slight noise on my active speakers before. Since I use your power cables, the noise is gone. I can not believe it, because I have already tried so many power cables.

* I never thought that power cables have such a positive impact on my amplifier and CD Player / Dac / Streamer

 

 

 

 

RCA Cables

* My CD player / DAC / Streamer now plays beautifully authentic. The voices and instruments have never sounded so natural. The stereo stage is tangibly close.

* I thought I bought a new streamer, I've never heard music so beautifully before

* My digital components sound fabulously beautiful with your RCA cables. I have never heard them like this.

 

Here´re some examples ...

 

lappblackred1.thumb.jpg.7eaf506235077b3717c6a2c1333100c4.jpgLappblackred2.thumb.jpg.16d3d438f1fa88b95727074c9adea10a.jpg1570613921_LappStone.thumb.jpg.8e74cb3ff7bc639ae0749623ae24396c.jpgSpeakOn2.jpg.72dfbb8170d9b42e1078b08b44fc5c8d.jpglappblackwhite3.jpg.2ec342d99c4590bc72e9dd898370a2d4.jpg

 

 

Studioline.jpg.b184efb3836ecf867dcf81df0de47e9b.jpg

 

 

LappKC38.thumb.jpg.22d22ce575364646c0c4ef98d2db407d.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

Not exactly.  And I hear this argument very often that if you don't hear a difference in cables then "your system is not resolving enough" which may or may not be the case, most likely not.

 

 

There are some major issues I do not expect non-engineers to understand, one is phase margin. Amplifiers are tested on resistive loads which do not tell the whole story, speakers are not resistive loads, they do have a DC resistive element to them but this is only one variable of the complete speaker model. The phase margin of an amplifier can be reduced to instability on reactive loads like real speakers and yes even extremely expensive amps or well regarded amps can have this issue. When I say "well engineered system" I mean not someone that purchased high quality gear and installs it themselves, I am talking about an engineer that sets up the entire system and validates performance.

 

Speaker cable manufacturers are making the "cable sound" issue more compounding with the fact that they know MANY amplifiers DO NOT have networks to keep loading flat, speaker coils increase impedance with frequency, this leads to loading issues and phase/gain margin issues. Speaker cable manufacturers are hiding an RC zobel network inside their cables to change the loading characteristics of the speakers which can definitely account for a change in sound. You are not hearing the difference in a conductor or the conductor material as those properties are extremely small but you can get a cleaner/smoother high frequency response with these added networks so that is what you are hearing. This goes back to a well engineered system, unless one knows what to look for or test for when setting up systems you wouldn't know if you need a zobel network. Some good amplifiers already have them but many do not. It is good practice to compare input to output signals from an amplifier driving loudspeaker systems with real music playing, this gives great insight to what is actually happening between the two. I am certain these networks built into many of these aftermarket expensive speaker cables is what people are hearing. Anybody can add these to their own system for a couple of dollars, you do not need to spend thousands of dollars.

 

Without the networks a cable is modeled as series DC resistance, series inductance, and parallel shunt capacitance (parallel to load). No matter what cable you choose these variables change very slightly. I have measured many cables in real world and also have used these numbers to use simulation software to help predict cable behavior. The longer the speaker cable the more these variables can possibly alter the sound but for the most part with normal to short length cables the difference is so small you cannot hear any difference but start to get into slightly longer cable runs and these variables can start to show losses or change phase/gain margin.

 

There is a simple solution for the average audiophile, use true balanced/differential interconnects from source to amplifier, these will be the longest runs in length. Place your mono amplifiers as close as possible to the speaker binding posts to keep speaker wire as short as possible, mine are maybe 18" maximum length, this makes the variables moot and they cannot really change the sound being such small values of DC resistance, inductance and capacitance. I find this practice is by far the easiest way to get great results and remove cabling from the equation.

 

 

 

Just remember, everything you hear cannot be measured. When I want to enjoy music, I don't need an oscilloscope. I sit down and listen. With my ears. To the music. Measurements be damned.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, MicroMara said:

As a german private audio equipment cable manufacturer, I produce several hundred speaker cables, RCA cables as well as power cables every year.

If my HiFi friends didn't hear any acoustic improvements on their systems, I certainly wouldn't be as successful. Should they all be wrong ?

Here´re some rewies ..

 

You realize with pharmaceutical studies why they add a control placebo? If people think they are taking a medicine even though it is just a sugar pill they often psychologically feel better. The human perception and mind is extremely deceitful, you do not even see everything in your sight, your mind fill in lots of blanks to make the processing faster.

 

 

10 minutes ago, MicroMara said:

* The harsh highs from my horn speakers are now completely gone. Now my horn speakers play silky smooth and with quite strong bass foundation.

 

Now that is exactly what I am talking about because there is zero chance a power cable will do any of this.

 

Since you are in this market then you will not mind explaining exactly how a power cable will make his horn less harsh? I am an engineer so don't refrain from technical explanations.

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11 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

Just remember, everything you hear cannot be measured.

 

This is a myth.

 

Everything you hear is without a question measurable since it resides in our predictable Newtonian physics world. The key is knowing what to measure.

 

The only thing that cannot be measured is psychological which is what accounts for 90% of what people hear, it's all in their minds not their ears.

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14 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

You realize with pharmaceutical studies why they add a control placebo? If people think they are taking a medicine even though it is just a sugar pill they often psychologically feel better. The human perception and mind is extremely deceitful, you do not even see everything in your sight, your mind fill in lots of blanks to make the processing faster.

 

I have always felt when someone has a preconceived opinion before buying something and then shelling out big bucks for it they will make themselves believe it will sound better. Even if expensive cables do improve the sound it will be minimal at best. In other words money better spent on something else. That being said I have no problem with someone spending their money on whatever they choose if it makes them feel better.  

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2 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

This is a myth.

 

Everything you hear is without a question measurable since it resides in our predictable Newtonian physics world. The key is knowing what to measure.

 

The only thing that cannot be measured is psychological which is what accounts for 90% of what people hear, it's all in their minds not their ears.

 

 

See this is what I'm talking about in my post above. You want to tell people what they can and can't hear because of a measurement you made and because YOU can't hear it. How do you know what I can hear? And what does it matter if it's the brain relaxing and allowing you to enjoy the music more with a different component or cable and "not their ears"? I don't tell you that you are wrong because you don't hear a difference, but you tell me I'm wrong because I do because the difference can't be measured.

 

This is exactly why A/B/X testing is such a farce. Remove the anxiety of a switchbox, blindfold, and questionnaire and let the long term listening tell you what you prefer. For me, there will be one (insert audio thingy here) that will allow me to enjoy the music more than the other one. If it all sounds the same to you, then God bless you.

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

Since you are in this market then you will not mind explaining exactly how a power cable will make his horn less harsh? I am an engineer so don't refrain from technical explanations.

As far as I know a power cable won´t be linked to a horn but to an amp. The speaker benefits from the sound improvement of the amp . It always comes to this kind of discussions when it comes to audio cables, so it´s better to close the box of pandora..

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6 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

 

See this is what I'm talking about in my post above. You want to tell people what they can and can't hear because of a measurement you made and because YOU can't hear it. How do you know what I can hear? And what does it matter if it's the brain relaxing and allowing you to enjoy the music more with a different component or cable and "not their ears"? I don't tell you that you are wrong because you don't hear a difference, but you tell me I'm wrong because I do because the difference can't be measured.

 

This is exactly why A/B/X testing is such a farce. Remove the anxiety of a switchbox, blindfold, and questionnaire and let the long term listening tell you what you prefer. For me, there will be one (insert audio thingy here) that will allow me to enjoy the music more than the other one. If it all sounds the same to you, then God bless you.

 

 

 

 

 

I can only tell people what they can or cannot hear because the function lives within predictable physics, our ears are nothing more than transducers changing physical energy (sound pressure) into electrical/chemical energy. This entire function is well understood and predictable, the psychology of the matter is what you are talking about which is your perception. Eat some LSD and your perception changes but physics has not. This is why when you have no idea what you are using in terms of cables you cannot hear any differences because your mind cannot set a bias.

 

This spill over into many other topics. I am also into wine and the same bias is seen in that as well. One study involved renowned wine connoisseurs, where cheap wine was secretly poured into bottles from expensive brands.  When the wine was poured for the tasters from the cheap-label bottle, they described it as bitter, crude, and unpleasant; but when the same wine was poured from the expensive-label bottle they without exception described the taste as lovely, refined, and full of subtle nuances. This is why companies with profits to gain only have reviews and testimonials to fall back on as they really have zero actual substance to peddle their wares.

 

I am not telling anyone what to purchase and this is all for recreation and pleasure so do what makes you happy. I only take aim at the manufacturers of this stuff and charge way too much and make up 99% techo-babble to mystify you into purchasing their garbage.

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24 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

The only thing that cannot be measured is psychological which is what accounts for 90% of what people hear, it's all in their minds not their ears.

And up to a point[*], that's OK. Emotional satisfaction is a huge part of enjoyment of this hobby. As far as I am concerned, the amplifiers that I built sound better than the amplifiers that I bought, no matter what any measurements might say. Same with speakers that I built, etc.

 

[*] The point where that's no longer OK is the point of self-delusion. That threshold varies from person to person, but I'll never spend thousands of dollars on a pair of interconnects, for example.

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1 minute ago, MicroMara said:

As far as I know a power cable won´t be linked to a horn but to an amp. The speaker benefits from the sound improvement of the amp . It always comes to this kind of discussions when it comes to audio cables, so it´s better to close the box of pandora..

 

Please explain the benefit to the amp and then how it effects the speaker? You are in this business and I expect you to have a lot of data to follow up these questions since you need to R&D your products to make them function as you claim correct?

 

It is not pandora's box really, it's just technical explanations which you shouldn't mind sharing if they work as described.

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I know what I'll hear but my ears were full of bliss...

When the 12 gauge sounded so much more deep and rich I figured the decreased resistivity had a lot to do with it. I was coming from a decent oxygen free 18 gauge at the time. I ran 50' lengths also.

 

Balanced interconnects between the amp and the pre? I only had streaming and cds that were impacted by that but I liked the difference... not sure if was worth the almost hundred dollars for them but I tried it out all the same.

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29 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

When the 12 gauge sounded so much more deep and rich I figured the decreased resistivity had a lot to do with it. I was coming from a decent oxygen free 18 gauge at the time. I ran 50' lengths also.

 

Great example where Speaker cables can make a difference, especially with that 50' run length.

 

18awg = 6.5m/foot

 

.0065*50= .325 ohms

 

That will kill your damping factor

 

12awg = 1.6m/foot

 

.0016*50= .08 ohms

 

The 18awg you were using was 4x more resistive vs the the 12awg per same run distance of 50'

 

 

Thank you for showing a clear example of when speaker wire can make a difference. Remember the longer the run the larger the gauge you want as that will have the biggest impact on sound.

 

 

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let the long term listening tell you what you prefer.
 
 
 
 


I came to this conclusion as well. Let the initial assumptions fall to the wayside and the long-term comparisons will prevail.

If they don't.......smoke or drink something while yer jammin.





Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

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I'm a believer that cables make a difference. I was a skeptic using all basic stock power cords and amazon basics interconnects and car speaker wire of a thicker gauge. I met a guy who wanted to hear my DAC i had for sale and i got to know him and the topic came up and he didn't push anything on me and even recommended budget cables to me that sounded good but most of his system if high end and he has a lot of very expensive stuff just sitting in his back room. So he let me borrow some Duelund DIY power cables, some high end Shunyata power cables and a few other pricey ones i don't remember. A $4k furutech power conditioner. Some $500+ interconnects. The Shunyata power cables(i tried several) all made a big jump from the standard cables. The interconnects all made an improvement. The Duelund which used silver and some other silver interconnects were all my least favorite because in my system everything i tried with silver is annoyingly sibilant for some reason and it's put me off to silver.  The $4k power conditioner compared to my old home theater panamax power conditioner with several non current limiting outlets? Didn't hear a difference. 
Whether my system was not resolving enough to hear the difference in power conditioners, i don't know. At the time i had 3 different DACs he let me use with my McIntosh set up, an Audio Note 0.1x, an Audio Note 2.something kit?(both AN Dacs were upgraded/modded), and a ModWright Tube Modded Oppo-105. I've also had my current Accuphase set up with a Denafrips Ares II when i've used some of his interconnects, from AcroLink and another sibilant expensive silver cable and a cheaper blue jeans cable. All made a difference over a standard digital coax-with the blue jeans being good enough of a jump for me.

I myself was using a printer cable for my USB DAC. I purchased a Supra USB cable based on reviews and it's relatively cheap. It was an obvious jump in clarity. 

Where i land though, is in the camp of diminishing returns. The jump from basic cables to a good low budget cable is big, the jump from the good low budget cable to $500 cables? Extremely subtle and just not worth it for me. 

Funny enough i had just spent the past few days looking at different internal speaker wire myself before i saw this topic. Duelund and Audio Note and Jupiter wire. No idea if internal speaker wire makes a difference, but i'm sure it does over the cheap wire a lot of speakers use. 

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