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Cables made a difference


VDS

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15 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

I agree with this. But many aren't using the speakers to their full (or even close) capability. Wouldn't you rather have 98% of the performance than 68%? And I guarantee you that better source components and amplification are going to give you more of what the speaker is capable of.

 

You are not viewing this correctly.

 

If your woofer has 10% THD it doesn't matter what source or amp you use that speaker will always be the limiting factor. You can't increase or decrease your speaker performance, it is what it is no matter what and the transducer distortion will always greatly out weigh anything else in the chain even with low fidelity equipment.

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19 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

I agree with this. But many aren't using the speakers to their full (or even close) capability. Wouldn't you rather have 98% of the performance than 68%? And I guarantee you that better source components and amplification are going to give you more of what the speaker is capable of.

 

 

Funny you mention this. Many will never hear the speakers to their best potential because they seek expensive signature sounds that interpret how things "should" be. I might use PEQ's and DSP  at times but past that the EQ is flat all the way and I strive for live sound like I was there. I don't quibble with real improvements but tiny expensive incremental ones or signature sounds do not appeal to me.

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14 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

Like it or not the transducers (speakers) will always have the most distortion in the chain and the hardest to get "accurate".

Thank you. Although many do not understand or accept this reality it is nevertheless the truth.

And also some people do not like horn loaded loudspeakers. Some do. I am in the second group. The freedom from excessive IM distortion and the dynamics that horns are capable of just do it for me.

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11 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

You are not viewing this correctly.

 

If your woofer has 10% THD it doesn't matter what source or amp you use that speaker will always be the limiting factor. You can't increase or decrease your speaker performance, it is what it is no matter what and the transducer distortion will always greatly out weigh anything else in the chain even with low fidelity equipment.

 

So you are saying a 5 channel receiver from Best Buy will sound as good as my Allnic tube integrated amplifier?

 

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1 minute ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

So you are saying a 5 channel receiver from Best Buy will sound as good as my Allnic tube integrated amplifier?

 

Hmmm, Were you reading the same response as I did? CBH is talking speakers and you are talking amps.

 

4 minutes ago, babadono said:

I am in the second group. The freedom from excessive IM distortion and the dynamics that horns are capable of just do it for me.

Darned right and there is no substitute for a good horn and driver combo.

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Yeah I read the same response, and this is what he said.

 

Quote

You can't increase or decrease your speaker performance

 

That's just plain crazy. If you couldn't improve the speaker performance everyone would use the same amplifier. And why wouldn't they?

 

Oh I know there are those here who believe it all sounds the same. I just like to hear 'em say it once in a while. It's good for a laugh...

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4 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

So you are saying a 5 channel receiver from Best Buy will sound as good as my Allnic tube integrated amplifier?

 

 

You are twisting the facts to make a completely different argument.

 

I am saying which is fact that the elephant in the room that is almost never discussed is the fact that loudspeaker distortions are magnitudes greater than anything else in the chain which is why many professionals will give the good advice of spend the majorit of your budget and efforts on picking the right loudspeaker, then let the rest fall inline. I never said the electronics make no difference, I am saying their differences will be a magnitude lower in sound performance. So first get your speakers picked as this will be the largest contributing factor on the overall sound of the system and then later improve upon the rest of the chain as they make less of an impact on sound quality.

 

https://audioxpress.com/article/Measurement-and-Perception-of-Regular-Loudspeaker-Distortion

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1 minute ago, Shakeydeal said:

That's just plain crazy. If you couldn't improve the speaker performance everyone would use the same amplifier. And why wouldn't they?

 

Oh I know there are those here who believe it all sounds the same. I just like to hear 'em say it once in a while. It's good for a laugh...

 

You are only hearing what you want to hear. Read my other response but I will repeat it again for you.

 

Speaker performance cannot change, they have their own characteristics that are already set that you cannot change. If you input a perfect signal into the loudspeaker and at a specific output and frequency you get say 30% THD, that distortion will always be there no matter what amplifier or source you choose. Get it?

 

AFTER you have chosen a quality loudspeaker then you can improve on the rest of the chain but their differences are improvements upon themselves and sum with the loudspeaker, it's just the loudspeaker imperfections and distortions are of a magnitude greater than all the other electronics in the chain so they are much smaller differences compared to changing loudspeakers.

 

Make sense now?

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1 minute ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

You are twisting the facts to make a completely different argument.

 

I am saying which is fact that the elephant in the room that is almost never discussed is the fact that loudspeaker distortions are magnitudes greater than anything else in the chain which is why many professionals will give the good advice of spend the majorit of your budget and efforts on picking the right loudspeaker, then let the rest fall inline. I never said the electronics make no difference, I am saying their differences will be a magnitude lower in sound performance. So first get your speakers picked as this will be the largest contributing factor on the overall sound of the system and then later improve upon the rest of the chain as they make less of an impact on sound quality.

 

https://audioxpress.com/article/Measurement-and-Perception-of-Regular-Loudspeaker-Distortion

Yeah he is parsing words that don't address what you were saying. You limit your speakers and a really great amp will just make mediocre even more obvious and not fix or help help the speaker problem. 100% agree with you. This idea is precisely why I built the Super MWM's.

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5 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

You said I can't improve my speakers performance. Yes, you actually said that.

 

Yes I did say that but you are twisting it into something it isn't from your misunderstanding of the functions.

 

How can an amp or source change the distortion characteristics of a loudspeaker? They can't. If the woofer is at 10% THD at say 95db for 50Hz then that is it's own properties and nothing before it can alter it. Is that clearer for you?

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I believe in the scientific method to understand the universe. That said, we are learning more about subtle forces every year.  Understanding the universe is a ongoing process.


Also, psychology is very powerful.  If someone believes their system sounds better with a 500$, or 5000$, cable, then does it? My wife thinks our Alexa sounds great, I don’t. Who is right?  
 

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26 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

Yes I did say that but you are twisting it into something it isn't from your misunderstanding of the functions.

 

How can an amp or source change the distortion characteristics of a loudspeaker? They can't. If the woofer is at 10% THD at say 95db for 50Hz then that is it's own properties and nothing before it can alter it. Is that clearer for you?

That's because it is a TRANS-DUCER. Changing one type of energy to another. If this were perfect or even close to perfect we would be blown away by the fidelity.

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12 minutes ago, VDS said:

One serious question.  Do tubes produce measurable differences. Say a new 6sn7 and a NOS from the 50’s?

Ive really never heard if they do, nobody seems to talk about measurable differences. 

 

Yes. Even within the same production batch of the assembly line there is a tolerance which is why the datasheet gives "average characteristics".

 

I was measuring my Telefunken 12AX7's the other day, I have about 20 of them left and in the same test circuit measured at the same output level and frequency they were anywhere between 2% THD to 5% THD. And to complicate matters the ones that tested at higher THD% didn't show the same FFT spectrum on my distortion analyzer. Two tubes with 3.5% THD where one is almost all second harmonic will sound different than the other that has more third and higher harmonics.

 

I tend to focus on tube brand and production years for longevity and consistency, that's it. After that I just test them in circuit to find the best for the application. For example the ones I tested at 2% THD and were mainly just second harmonic go into my phono preamp for best results. The ones testing higher are fine as phase inverters, followers even guitar amp duty.

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7 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

Yes. Even within the same production batch of the assembly line there is a tolerance which is why the datasheet gives "average characteristics".

 

I was measuring my Telefunken 12AX7's the other day, I have about 20 of them left and in the same test circuit measured at the same output level and frequency they were anywhere between 2% THD to 5% THD. And to complicate matters the ones that tested at higher THD% didn't show the same FFT spectrum on my distortion analyzer. Two tubes with 3.5% THD where one is almost all second harmonic will sound different than the other that has more third and higher harmonics.

 

I tend to focus on tube brand and production years for longevity and consistency, that's it. After that I just test them in circuit to find the best for the application. For example the ones I tested at 2% THD and were mainly just second harmonic go into my phono preamp for best results. The ones testing higher are fine as phase inverters, followers even guitar amp duty.

I’m not being sarcastic, but can we quantify why some tubes are smooth, bright, dark, harsh, have more “air”, etc?

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31 minutes ago, VDS said:

I’m not being sarcastic, but can we quantify why some tubes are smooth, bright, dark, harsh, have more “air”, etc?

 

Of course we can but it can be very technical so not easy to explain.

 

For distortion alone the THD% doesn't tell the complete story which is why we look at spectrum analyzers. It can also be related to music theory in terms of harmony, hence harmonic distortion. Second harmonic is an interval of one octave, which is the same exact note just up one octave so it is very harmonious and reinforces the fundamental. This type of distortion from non-linear functions is the most benign. Third harmonic is an octave above a musical fifth interval, so a 12th. The fifth interval is a very powerful one, in guitar lingo a power chord is almost always just the fundamental and the fifth while omitting the musical third interval. The fifth is harmonious to the fundamental but in a more aggressive manner which is why power chords on guitar with some distortion effects sound so big and powerful. When you start getting higher than the 4th harmonic the intervals become dissonant not harmonious, they sound "off". The flat fifth in musical terms is called the blue note, it was actually illegal by the church to play this interval as it was so dissonant it was called the devils music. Play a diminished chord on any instrument and you will hear how "off" it sounds. These higher harmonics are for the most part not wanted in hifi as they become fatiguing and dissonant. So a tube with low distortion, predominantly second harmonic will sound smoother vs one with high odd harmonics, which can be harsh, dark etc...Linear loads create odd harmonics, so push pull amps will have more odd harmonics vs a single ended amp which is dominated by second harmonic. So although the single ended amp has more THD%, it is benign due to the majority of it being second harmonic and very harmonious.

 

I will not get into pentodes and loading which creates higher distortion rising with frequency or interelectrode capacitances etc... There are many variables but distortion spectrum is the biggie.

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The cable debate reminds me of the discussions I'm currently having with my 7 year old.  I can tell her whole-heartedly that it is better to believe in Santa Clause because I recall the added wonderment this belief added to Christmas. But as an adult, I realize that the perpetuation of this myth is really a ploy to sell more toys.  If you wish to cling to the wonderment, more power to you.  If you want rational people to take you seriously, you should really have better support than- "your system just isn't resolving enough".  

 

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