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Topping PA5 is incredible.


CoryGillmore

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On 1/18/2022 at 6:45 PM, jjptkd said:

Yet when viewed on an oscilloscope it was apparent that the top of that instantaneous transition was being distorted. Believe it or not, he needed more power!"

I still own 2 pairs of Carver Amazing Platinum speakers, which are a solid 20 db LESS Sensitive than my horn systems. A 20 db difference means the Carver speakers need 100 TIMES more power than horns.

 

So if that guy with the Scissor Snip Test needed more than 37 dbWatts, it most likely because he was NOT using Horn Speakers!!

 

If you were Bob Carver, and your job (ever since the Coffee Can amps he built in College) and Career has been to build and sell high power amplifiers (more expensive than low power ones), you can't do that by building horn speakers too!

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15 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

Any further comment on the sound? I may be in the market for something new soon thanks.

Detailed and crisp sound on my system.  Imaging, soundstage and micro details suffer a bit (compared to my class A amp), bass is great, but could be a little more extended/authoritative.  Again, for $350, Im nitpicking and this little amp is exceptional.  Compared to my hypex, less extreme control over the bass and much more crisp up top (perhaps more aggressive/fatiguing for some?).  It should be known that my speakers are 3 dB hot up top in crossover from the factory (behind the screen speakers) as are my speaker cables and interconnects.  So take my opinion on the amp knowing those variables.   

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1 minute ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Compared to my hypex, less extreme control over the bass and much more crisp up top (perhaps more aggressive/fatiguing for some?).  It should be known that my speakers are 3 dB hot up top in crossover from the factory (behind the screen speakers) as are my speaker cables and interconnects.  So take my opinion on the amp knowing those variables.   

Same with my speakers KPT-335's one of the reasons I bought the Carver 275 in the first place. I guess I should just order one only way to know for sure hard to beat that price-- sure I could resell or find a use for it somewhere if its not my cup of tea thanks.

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3 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

Same with my speakers KPT-335's one of the reasons I bought the Carver 275 in the first place. I guess I should just order one only way to know for sure hard to beat that price-- sure I could resell or find a use for it somewhere if its not my cup of tea thanks.

I switched my DAC filter to tilt high end down a smidge and I have a parametric eq that I can enable as volume increases to tone down the aggressive nature I feel the need to crank it. 

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On 1/19/2022 at 3:12 AM, Westcoastdrums said:

Here we go.  China to USA faster than middle of the country to the west coast.  Amazing.   Custom Mogami W2549 XLR to TRS 

00t0t_9RFQJQx2vKxz_0CI0t2_1200x900.jpg

I ordered my second one last Saturday night and received notification of it arriving in the UK today - predicted delivery on Saturday. 😯

 

I ordered the pair of custom Mogwami 1x XLR into 2x TRS splitter cable at the same time and they arrived on Wednesday. 😯😯

 

Global supply issues? 🤔

 

Russ

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1 hour ago, jjptkd said:

Same with my speakers KPT-335's one of the reasons I bought the Carver 275 in the first place. I guess I should just order one only way to know for sure hard to beat that price-- sure I could resell or find a use for it somewhere if its not my cup of tea thanks.

It would be interesting to hear your comparison in the light of this:

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/carver-crimson-275-review-tube-amp.29971/

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4 hours ago, jjptkd said:

Same with my speakers KPT-335's one of the reasons I bought the Carver 275 in the first place. I guess I should just order one only way to know for sure hard to beat that price-- sure I could resell or find a use for it somewhere if its not my cup of tea thanks.

Great Audio minds think alike. I do the same thing all the time.

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After reading the review I ordered one of these and it took a month to arrive.


I connected a pair of AR18B speakers with direct feed from a RPi PiCore Player. As the PA5 is balanced input I made a pair of RCA to TRS cables and there was adequate signal levels to give the AR's a good workout. Then tried it RPi >>--> miniDSP 2X4HD >>--> Topping PA5 with one speaker doing bass and the second as mid with the mDSP acting as an active crossover - all seemed good to go.


So decided to try the PA5 on my triamped KHorns as the mid amp, replacing the NAD amp.


After cabling it in, RCA out from miniDSP 2x4HD to TRS into the PA5 to drive the mids I listened with no signal - only the faintest hiss at max vol on the Topping PA5 ! I ran a REW sweep and adjusted the mid signal gain in the miniDSP leaving the PA5 at full vol, ran another sweep to confirm, cheked again for mDSP hiss , still very feint. Played some music and it sounded fine.

 

I removed the 7db L-Pad on the mid, this time I turned the Topping PA5 from full (4 o'clock) to where the hiss is just heard at the horn mouth which is about 2 o'clock on the PA5 vol ctl, and re did the gain on the mDSP.
I then removed the 7db L-Pad on the Hi driver of the DCX464, re did gains in the mDSP and checked for hiss, none from the Hi.


Listening tests indicate that the PA5 is more neutral than the NAD, and now that the DCX 464's are running without L-Pads they are 110db/W so there is more than enough power from the PA5 to match the Audiophonics MPA-S125NC Hypex N-Core amps on Bass and Hi.


The reduction in hiss from the miniDSP 2x4HD is the most noteable. Like the PA5 the Hypex N-Core amps are also balanced input but with RCA input sockets and a brief examination showed that the internal wiring emulated the circuit of the RCA to TRS cables I had made.

 

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57 minutes ago, Wirrunna said:

After reading the review I ordered one of these and it took a month to arrive.


I connected a pair of AR18B speakers with direct feed from a RPi PiCore Player. As the PA5 is balanced input I made a pair of RCA to TRS cables and there was adequate signal levels to give the AR's a good workout. Then tried it RPi >>--> miniDSP 2X4HD >>--> Topping PA5 with one speaker doing bass and the second as mid with the mDSP acting as an active crossover - all seemed good to go.


So decided to try the PA5 on my triamped KHorns as the mid amp, replacing the NAD amp.


After cabling it in, RCA out from miniDSP 2x4HD to TRS into the PA5 to drive the mids I listened with no signal - only the faintest hiss at max vol on the Topping PA5 ! I ran a REW sweep and adjusted the mid signal gain in the miniDSP leaving the PA5 at full vol, ran another sweep to confirm, cheked again for mDSP hiss , still very feint. Played some music and it sounded fine.

 

I removed the 7db L-Pad on the mid, this time I turned the Topping PA5 from full (4 o'clock) to where the hiss is just heard at the horn mouth which is about 2 o'clock on the PA5 vol ctl, and re did the gain on the mDSP.
I then removed the 7db L-Pad on the Hi driver of the DCX464, re did gains in the mDSP and checked for hiss, none from the Hi.


Listening tests indicate that the PA5 is more neutral than the NAD, and now that the DCX 464's are running without L-Pads they are 110db/W so there is more than enough power from the PA5 to match the Audiophonics MPA-S125NC Hypex N-Core amps on Bass and Hi.


The reduction in hiss from the miniDSP 2x4HD is the most noteable. Like the PA5 the Hypex N-Core amps are also balanced input but with RCA input sockets and a brief examination showed that the internal wiring emulated the circuit of the RCA to TRS cables I had made.

 

Is this a positive review? 

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1 hour ago, jjptkd said:

Is this a positive review? 

It's a definite maybe.

 

Positive in that the hiss from the miniDSP has been banished.

 

Maybe in the subjective part. The sound is almost clinical now, not quite as warm as the NAD. Soundstage is maybe not quite as good. After a few days I'm getting used to it though. Solo piano is stunning. Badly recorded classical choral is really bad now. 

The measurements are almost identical to those made with the NAD and any difference is down to slight movements of furnishings.

 

At this stage I won't go back to the NAD.

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On 1/20/2022 at 12:27 PM, Westcoastdrums said:

Detailed and crisp sound on my system.  Imaging, soundstage and micro details suffer a bit (compared to my class A amp), bass is great, but could be a little more extended/authoritative.  Again, for $350, Im nitpicking and this little amp is exceptional.  Compared to my hypex, less extreme control over the bass and much more crisp up top (perhaps more aggressive/fatiguing for some?).  It should be known that my speakers are 3 dB hot up top in crossover from the factory (behind the screen speakers) as are my speaker cables and interconnects.  So take my opinion on the amp knowing those variables.   

Replaced the Aiyima with the PA5 I got today. Was out picking up studio equipment I got from a friend who's moving to SC. Used my Pink Noise CD to set the gain to match the Aiyima (jiggling between 83.3 and 84.1 db). With no other adjustment I listened my usual test CD's on the Edgar Horn Titan II's with Seismic Sub (full horns all around). This amp seems to tilt everything to a different "room curve" favoring the BASS in a very strong fashion, whereas the Aiyima seemed to favor the high end with more ambience. But man Amp graps hold of the BASS and thumps your chest. I got a new DB meter and used it in A mode (not C) to do the gain adjustment. After female vocals, sax, guitar, and the drum solo on Take Five by Joe Morello on Dave Brubeck's classic, the kick drum transients were nothing short of amazing and I ended up reaching 111 db peaks with a Totally EFFORTLESS sound and total lack of strain and distortion. This is a keeper for sure! I'll do some enhanced listening on a different day since I'm tired from moving stuff up and down stairs and I fell on the ice twice. Unhurt, just sore muscles. Canadian born, I'm a former hockey player so ice doesn't bother me but moving heavy photo gear does! All for now. More later!

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On 1/25/2022 at 10:44 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

Totally EFFORTLESS sound and total lack of strain and distortion.

So after a time to let it all sink in, I now realize that it's the complex interaction of an amplifier to a speaker load that changes the sound of an amplifier (Julian Hirsch notwithstanding). Ignoring Noise for a moment, this amp is NOISELESS as far as thermal noise, which I think is what happens when quiescent current goes thought a transistor. I don't know which technology is contained in this PA5 amplifier's closed box, I have yet to peek inside (maybe I won't). But after living with low voltage, chip based, Class D amplifiers, I'm convinced that "clinical accuracy" is their claim to fame. As opposed to Class A "space heaters" and various tube amplifiers that don't measure as well and apply their own type of "pleasant distortions."

The PA5, like the Hypex NC-400's distortion numbers are, literally 10,000 times lower than any Tube Amplifier I've ever heard, measured,  or owned in my 20's and 30's, yet, I cannot deny their "Musicality," for lack of a better term. I'm pretty sure that if Paul W. Klipsch had lived to see and hear these modern marvels, he would be impressed at the ridiculously low distortion of these top 3 contenders on the Audio Science Review Site. Paul was definitely stuck in his ways, but time and a whole bunch of Klipsch fanatics have proved him correct (he referred to me as one of his "victims" when he introduced my to Jim Hunter). I'm reminding you all that even thought he approved my use of a Marantz 8B on my Khorns, it was sitting in the Hope Museum's Glass case when I pointed that amp out to him. Despite referring to a Marantz Model 9 as close to perfection in the tube world, he had long converted to BGW and 1/2 of Crown D60 on his own home 2PH3 setup because the distortion was lower. Solid State Class AB "stoves" as he called them, which is the term he used for amps with more than 10 Watts of output.  He complimented the work of Dr. Matti Otala who found the "bug" in SS amps, called Transient Intermodulation Distortion (just ask John Curl of Parasound fame) . Without that industry design upgrade in the 70's and 80's we would all probably still be preferring tubes over SS. Time and technology keep evolving, at least until our Sun burns out or we blow up the world. Either way from a gross dollar sales and marketing point of view, the more watts has to be better mentality and inefficient speakers are still being made for people with more money than sound knowledge (I used to think that too in my teens, but that changed after I got Khorns).

 

I went back and listen to Sade's vocals along with the SACD "Use Me" by Vanessa Hernandez (first heard at Axpona on $150,000 Wilson Audio Speakers). I paid $35 for that recording, shipped from Japan. Cover songs and a few others, but man what a recording of a great voice backed with top studio musicians! Part of my array of Benchmark Recordings, which sort of ties in with the name of the top amplifier that uses THX feedforward technology. I suspect the PA5 uses the same tech in order to have the same measured S/N ratio and distortion specs for 1/10th the price with 10 dbWatts less output. I'm not dismissing the possibility of hybrid technologies in the PA5, but at this point in my life, I only care about PERFORMANCE PER DOLLAR. Just like I'd rather spend money on Wood Horns and compression drivers that run on Milliwatts, rather than build Direct Radiator speakers that need 200-300 Amplifiers that cost more than the GMC Yukon and 3 friends needed to transport them (are you listening Dan D'Agostino?).

 

I include an interview with John Curl for your perusal and enjoyment.

JCinterview.pdf

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So Claude, are saying the PA5 is to your liking or too clinical and that distortion graphs are just that, lines on paper and not sound to your ear? Comparable, better or worse than the Hypex 400? It seems the ASR site is meaningful when only looking at bench tested results, hearing/listening to what the published specs report is not reported. I’ve said earlier that while the Benchmark and nCores have near identical results on paper I find the Benchmark, for whatever reasons, has better sonics. As does the F3 which I’m sure is a failure in testing mode. And you say today it’s a keeper but I wouldn’t be surprised that after extended ownership you grow tired of sound with no redeeming sonic value. I have come to find there is a difference - 

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52 minutes ago, richieb said:

So Claude, are saying the PA5 is to your liking or too clinical and that distortion graphs are just that, lines on paper and not sound to your ear? Comparable, better or worse than the Hypex 400? It seems the ASR site is meaningful when only looking at bench tested results, hearing/listening to what the published specs report is not reported. I’ve said earlier that while the Benchmark and nCores have near identical results on paper I find the Benchmark, for whatever reasons, has better sonics. As does the F3 which I’m sure is a failure in testing mode. And you say today it’s a keeper but I wouldn’t be surprised that after extended ownership you grow tired of sound with no redeeming sonic value. I have come to find there is a difference - 

It's too soon to tell. I only listened in a big hurry last night. About the BASS, I find just the opposite of what WestCoastDrums has found vs. his super pricey class A amp, where he says the bass is weak comparted to that. 

 

The speed "suggestions" on most US freeways is 70, whereas most people in Michigan do 80, typically. Whether you drive a 60's muscle car, a C8 Corvette, an SUV, or Ford F-150, they will all perform the same as transportation from point A to B on your GPS.

 

So it's about PERSONAL choice and ride comfort. Some people prefer the feel of a truck, others a Lamborghini. Modern trucks have a pretty darn good ride and don't cost $300,000, so I guess it's the same for Amplifiers.

 

In some regards, I prefer the $80 Aiyima, which is thinner on bass but seems to exaggerate the high end with extra sizzle and perceive ambience. I preferred it over class A and not going back. I didn't change a thing in my Pre Pro. An A/B tester would likely be better with a Y connector at the output of the signal fed to both, but without the ability to switch both the inputs and outputs at the same time, what would the interaction be with the two inputs in parallel?

 

So all I can say is that with my horns, they both sound excellent and get the job done for almost a ridiculously LOW PRICE. So when you throw in the Budgetary aspects of it all, would an upgrade to the Benchmark be worth the extra $2,650-2,920? Diminishing returns sets in awful quick.  It's also like arguing whether Khorns sound better than LaScalas with subs. So when we have Phase Coherent, Full Range speakers systems with all horns, in a decent Room, at some point we all have to say "good enough" and just enjoy the music.

 

Otherwise it's like arguing whether Celine Dion is a better singer than Adele. I enjoy both and my electric bill doesn't go up when I do, like some people.

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24 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

It's too soon to tell. I only listened in a big hurry last night. About the BASS, I find just the opposite of what WestCoastDrums has found vs. his super pricey class A amp, where he says the bass is weak comparted to that. 

 

The speed "suggestions" on most US freeways is 70, whereas most people in Michigan do 80, typically. Whether you drive a 60's muscle car, a C8 Corvette, an SUV, or Ford F-150, they will all perform the same as transportation from point A to B on your GPS.

 

So it's about PERSONAL choice and ride comfort. Some people prefer the feel of a truck, others a Lamborghini. Modern trucks have a pretty darn good ride and don't cost $300,000, so I guess it's the same for Amplifiers.

 

In some regards, I prefer the $80 Aiyima, which is thinner on bass but seems to exaggerate the high end with extra sizzle and perceive ambience. I preferred it over class A and not going back. I didn't change a thing in my Pre Pro. An A/B tester would likely be better with a Y connector at the output of the signal fed to both, but without the ability to switch both the inputs and outputs at the same time, what would the interaction be with the two inputs in parallel?

 

So all I can say is that with my horns, they both sound excellent and get the job done for almost a ridiculously LOW PRICE. So when you throw in the Budgetary aspects of it all, would an upgrade to the Benchmark be worth the extra $2,650-2,920? Diminishing returns sets in awful quick.  It's also like arguing whether Khorns sound better than LaScalas with subs. So when we have Phase Coherent, Full Range speakers systems with all horns, in a decent Room, at some point we all have to say "good enough" and just enjoy the music.

 

Otherwise it's like arguing whether Celine Dion is a better singer than Adele. I enjoy both and my electric bill doesn't go up when I do, like some people.

Been following this a bit.

This sizzle mentioned measurable or just your thoughts Claude ?

All of my muscle cars had steep gears and we're screaming pretty good at 80.

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5 hours ago, jason str said:

Been following this a bit.

This sizzle mentioned measurable or just your thoughts Claude ?

All of my muscle cars had steep gears and we're screaming pretty good at 80.

Could be but they both sound really good, so why bother? One guy said he got the Aiyima for $80 and said he would have paid $1,000 for it. Yet neither one cost anywhere near that much. Just got home exhausted, so I poured a glass of Carnivor Wine and headed downstairs for more listening. I also got a new DB meter to replace my old Radio Shack. I'll compare that to the one in my iPhone today because last night it showed I was hitting well over 100 db with the PA5, hitting 111 a few times, so I want to make sure if it's really that loud.

Me emotional testing impression is that it's Velvety Smooth, effortless super low distortion,  and I can play loud with Zero trace of stridency, which is easy to get with my setup downstairs being flat to 20 Khz and beyond. More later..........................

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