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La Scala AL crossover


Masca72
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Thank you all for the interesting comments. I cannot understand what is wrong with my AL filters, it seems to me that the speakers sound great, even in comparison with AL-3 Crites networks which from what I understand do not attenuate the mid horn sufficiently. If the mids are not attenuated as much as is necessary, the speaker sounds too "all out" and the mids are too overhanging, while with the original AL it is more balanced, at least in my ears I am no expert with crossover ... AL-3 is probably been optimized for other drivers, to get an alleged real improvement I would have to switch to other networks like A 4500 and other tweeters, but I prefer to leave the system as it was born and buy other records ... Thanks

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59 minutes ago, Deang said:

Here you go Mike.

 

 

K77M_K77F.jpg

 

Bob's post with the plot, dated December 7, 2006.

 

"I think the one I tested was from 2004.  I don't think there is a way to make that design go higher than the K-77M really. And Klipsch only claims the new Khorn's frequency response up to 17 khz. The K-77F is simply a clone of the K-77M and there would be no reason to expect it to be better than the K-77M.  The different K-77Ms I have tested vary quite a bit in frequency response and sensitivity.  I think that would be true also of the K-77F.  I think from the ones I have seen the inside of, the K-77F might be improved a bit by installing a new EV diaprhagm.  The EV diaphragm looks to be a lot better constructed than the clone of the EV diaphragm that the K-77F uses.  

 

I do have a bunch of brand new in the box T-35As (K-77M) made toward the end of EV manufacture of those.  I probably should test one of those to see how a brand new never used fresh from the factory one tests."

 

Bob Crites

 

 

 

 

Interesting!  I guess I was misremembering.  

 

Thanks, Mike

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40 minutes ago, Masca72 said:

Thank you all for the interesting comments. I cannot understand what is wrong with my AL filters, it seems to me that the speakers sound great, even in comparison with AL-3 Crites networks which from what I understand do not attenuate the mid horn sufficiently. If the mids are not attenuated as much as is necessary, the speaker sounds too "all out" and the mids are too overhanging, while with the original AL it is more balanced, at least in my ears I am no expert with crossover ... AL-3 is probably been optimized for other drivers, to get an alleged real improvement I would have to switch to other networks like A 4500 and other tweeters, but I prefer to leave the system as it was born and buy other records ... Thanks

 

 

The AL-3 filter is definitely brighter than the AL, especially with the Sonicaps. Both of those networks were designed to be used with the K-55-M. Over the years, Klipsch voicing on these loudspeakers has been all over the map, so I would suggest just listening to whatever you prefer.

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On 12/3/2021 at 11:47 AM, Marvel said:

With all due respect... what is your problem dude? I knew Dennis (may he rest in peace), and know Dean. Neither has made money off of me, and both have bent over backward to help folks out.

Stating facts dude. If you cannot handle the truth you are in a big group these days. 

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19 hours ago, wvu80 said:

They did make a bad one, in fact, two.  Both the AL and the AL-2 were considered the worst sounding Klipsch ever produced for the LS.  There are numerous threads on this and more details on the backstory as to how that happened.

 

The AL came out in 1983 and was so bad it was immediately replaced in 1984 with the AL-2.  The AL-3 came out in 1989 and was universally acclaimed as a good one.  I believe this had the 4500 XO point.

Not quite correct, My LaScala's were made in '86 with AL crossovers minus the diodes as well. About saying bad crossovers from Klipsch I guess this means members here know more then the engineers at Klipsch. I still see no one saying exactly what is wrong with those crossovers. Having an electronic background I see nothing that much different from other crossover other then  the notch filters that are still being used by speaker manufacturers. Cannot see how notch filters would make them awful sounding as those on this forum claim. Saying that did and does make sellers of crossovers money. No one can disagree with that statement. For those that disagree I would like to know there engineer background in audio and what speaker company they work for. 

 

I was never dissatisfied with my AL crossovers for decades and was a happy camper. Klipsch has not what I would call ever made a bad speaker. Saying the AL crossover in a Klipsch speaker is bad is saying all those LaScala's made with AL crossovers were bad sounding. 

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9 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

Not quite correct, My LaScala's were made in '86 with AL crossovers minus the diodes as well. About saying bad crossovers from Klipsch I guess this means members here know more then the engineers at Klipsch.

From Crites website:

 

"In around 1983, we have the crossovers for the Klipschorn, LaScala, and Belle Klipsch becoming separate designs.  We have the AK for the Klipschorn, the AL for the LaScala and the AB for the Belle Klipsch.  At that point also, the Klipschorn crossover became a two section crossover with the woofer section mounted inside the woofer door.  We do not build the AK, AL, or AB crossovers since they are generally considered to be "not the best".  By around 1989, the design of these crossovers had changed (evolved) to the AK-3, AL-3 and AB-2 crossovers.  We do build those.

 

Here is a picture of our Type AL-3 crossover for the LaScala. We recommend that the Type AL used in LaScala speakers be replaced with our Type AL-3 or Type AA or Type A/4500"

 

https://critesspeakers.com/crossovers.html

 
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11 hours ago, Masca72 said:

Thank you all for the interesting comments. I cannot understand what is wrong with my AL filters, it seems to me that the speakers sound great, even in comparison with AL-3 Crites networks which from what I understand do not attenuate the mid horn sufficiently. If the mids are not attenuated as much as is necessary, the speaker sounds too "all out" and the mids are too overhanging, while with the original AL it is more balanced, at least in my ears I am no expert with crossover ... AL-3 is probably been optimized for other drivers, to get an alleged real improvement I would have to switch to other networks like A 4500 and other tweeters, but I prefer to leave the system as it was born and buy other records ... Thanks

😀

You and all others that own LaScala's from that period that have never heard of this site. As far as some saying bad that can be stated about all the Klipsch speakers. It is said by many that horns speaker are awful sounding to them from all the sites that talk about audio products. The only place I have ever heard that the AL crossover is awful is on this site by sellers of crossovers and those that drank the cool aid. Never bad sounding but I will agree that there are other crossovers that do sound better with LaScala's to my ears. I Still have my AL's with new caps but I prefer the sound of AA's. I just find it misinformation, a common used word these days, to say they are bad sounding. Nothing wrong with them and like you there are many that prefer the sound with the AL's over others.  

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Just now, jjptkd said:

From Crites website:

 

"In around 1983, we have the crossovers for the Klipschorn, LaScala, and Belle Klipsch becoming separate designs.  We have the AK for the Klipschorn, the AL for the LaScala and the AB for the Belle Klipsch.  At that point also, the Klipschorn crossover became a two section crossover with the woofer section mounted inside the woofer door.  We do not build the AK, AL, or AB crossovers since they are generally considered to be "not the best".  By around 1989, the design of these crossovers had changed (evolved) to the AK-3, AL-3 and AB-2 crossovers.  We do build those.

 

Here is a picture of our Type AL-3 crossover for the LaScala. We recommend that the Type AL used in LaScala speakers be replaced with our Type AL-3 or Type AA or Type A/4500"

 

https://critesspeakers.com/crossovers.html

 

From a seller of crossovers of course. Bob was honest and as stated in the above post "not the best" but that is just his opinion and Bob had no engineer degree that I am aware of. Another factor is cost to build the AL and try to sell it. Parts count is high and probably be no market trying to build and sell an AL. No one will disagree that Bob was a good business man that made a profitable product. 

 

Listen guys that are going after me I am not trying to start arguments and I know there are many that love Bob and Dean on this forum but to say the AL was an awful crossover is just not correct. I have nothing against either of them and they did and do make excellent crossovers. I read about Dean's experiment with batteries in a crossover and have wanted to experiment with that design. Dean is a great person from all accounts but, no offense Dean, a 'little' opinionated as well as I can be at times. 

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14 hours ago, Curious_George said:

 

You can't just drop the tweeter crossover point to 4500Hz. You have to change BOTH the midrange lowpass and tweeter highpass crossover points. The below image contains the changes you need to make;

Crites A4500 Crossover.jpg

Be sure to change the tweeter though or you will be buying one anyways after it burns out. 

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32 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

 

 

Here is a picture of our Type AL-3 crossover for the LaScala. We recommend that the Type AL used in LaScala speakers be replaced with our Type AL-3 or Type AA or Type A/4500"

 

https://critesspeakers.com/crossovers.html

 

I can agree with this statement if one must, or think they must, buy new crossovers that own LaScala's with AL crossovers. Again if you like what you are hearing with the AL crossovers why try and fix what is not broken. If one has never heard of this forum that own AL's from the 80's they are more then likely perfectly happy with what they are hearing. The engineer that designed the AL along with management thought it was an improvement. Large parts count that was not cheap to make so they did not do it just to add to the cost of the speaker. 

 

I wish now that I had never posted on this thread but I do not like to hear that Klipsch engineers made an bad sounding speaker. Never happened especially when PWK was the head of the company. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, henry4841 said:

I wish now that I had never posted on this thread but

 

I think you are OK with posting that topic.  There are multiple dozens of threads on the same topic in these forums.  One of the problems finding the best ones is trying to search on La Scala, uh I mean lascalla, lascala, etc etc.

 

You obviously have strong feelings on the topic, nothing wrong with that either.  What makes you and me different is that I read most of those old threads about the AL and at the time I didn't own the LS so I didn't commit all that detailed info to memory.  The best I have is a vague recollection so I'm not able to point anybody in the exact direction of what I read.  There were people who worked for Klipsch, Inc at the who were authoritative and who knew the backstory on all this.

 

Quote

I do not like to hear that Klipsch engineers made an bad sounding speaker. Never happened

especially when PWK was the head of the company. 

 

Not every Klipsch speaker was "the best."  Like everything else there are top tier products, mid price and yes, lower end Klipsch such as the Synergy speakers sold in Best Buy which did not sound very good.  The fact that the AL was quickly replaced by the Type AL-2 should tell you something, as well as the AL-2 which was subsequently replaced by something better.

+++ 

 

All that extensive discussion on the AL exists somewhere in the archives of this forum.  It's hard to find in a search but it's there if anyone has a further interest in that history.

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Guys I did not intend to step on the toes any of the old members on the forum. I was warned on other forums the old timers on this site can be a rough bunch. I have been in the electronic field my entire life as a technician not an designer nor do I have any degrees. Looking at the schematic I see nothing electronically wrong with the AL crossover. Remove the notch filters and the design is pretty simple. The notch filters are there to flatten the frequency response as Marvel in a post intuited is a good thing before he called me dude in a derogatory manner because I disagree with him.

 

Someone please show me on the schematic where the AL crossover has a fault electronically that makes it a bad crossover. That is all that I am saying. 

 

I will bow to the old members and let this thread proceed without me. 

 

 

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Never heard a bad sounding Klipsch. Not one of the old dudes. Liked the AL alot. Read alot of disenchantment about them. Different opinions mostly

in archive. Have read positive about them also. Have no skin in the AL at the moment. Relax and enjoy the diversity of opinion and contribute at will.

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