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KP-302/3002 High Frequency Speaker - Intermittent & Scratchy Sound - Resolved, Bad Cap' Connection


rszoke

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3 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

Stacking together multiple caps to reach a desired value when there are sources that will provide a much simpler and more cost effective solution is ridiculous.  Here's one that has almost the exact values you need.

Well I might disagree on this one. It will reduce ESR when you use two caps and not one. I don't know how it does this but I can see it in measurements. I also don't know how important the minor drop in ESR is when you do this. Price wise if you are not buying expensive caps you won't be spending much more at all.

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41 minutes ago, geoff. said:

...wouldn’t paralleling several capacitors for one value also lower the resistance more than “spec” for the crossover design as intended by the original engineers, good, bad, or otherwise?

 

 

 

 

Are you privy to these specs? I have found nothing that indicates more than uf values. Just had a look at 6 different Klipsch crossover schematics and there was no tolerance other than uf and volts. uf was even numbers and no tolerance range and volts were specified, as I assume a minimum. Not one bit of information on ESR. I would REALLY like to get this info you have as I have been looking for some time for it. For instance lets take the AA crossover. What is the allowable resistance range and where does resistance fit in for each driver in allowable resistance as an aggregate of all components used counting tolerance stackup and for individual components.

 

  My assumption is anything that reduces resistance gets closer to design intent but I would really like to get a real definitive answer on this. I know for instance that reduced resistance in coils is supposed to be desirable, or so I read.

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I used to stack caps all the time when I was building crossovers.  I used to build the ALK ESNs which have huge cap values.  That invited the stacking.

 

When you stack caps of different values you create uneven time constants which adds smear.

 

Until I started using active systems with time delays I didn't realize how "unclear" passive networks can be..........and how you can screw them up even worse by messing with someone's design.

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

Are you privy to these specs? I have found nothing that indicates more than uf values. Just had a look at 6 different Klipsch crossover schematics and there was no tolerance other than uf and volts. uf was even numbers and no tolerance range and volts were specified, as I assume a minimum. Not one bit of information on ESR. I would REALLY like to get this info you have as I have been looking for some time for it. For instance lets take the AA crossover. What is the allowable resistance range and where does resistance fit in for each driver in allowable resistance as an aggregate of all components used counting tolerance stackup and for individual components.

 

  My assumption is anything that reduces resistance gets closer to design intent but I would really like to get a real definitive answer on this. I know for instance that reduced resistance in coils is supposed to be desirable, or so I read.

 

 

 

Dave, I apologize if my assumption about ESR has lead to your assumption that I have some secret files, lol.

 

I have only what I have managed to absorb on this, and a few other audio forums.

 

I would also like to know “what is the allowable resistance range”.

 

These are great questions that an engineer would be qualified to answer.

 

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OK - after digesting the feedback and what I've learned, I have this strategy:

  • will get a 2x capacitor set from Parts Connexion:  Solen Capacitor 24.0uF 400Vdc PB Series + Solen Capacitor 27.0uF 400Vdc PB SeriesMundorf Capacitor 5.60uF 250Vdc MCap Classic (MKP)
  • since I have 1 working crossover - I will replace the entire capacitor set on the inoperable crossover
  • direct compare both speakers (1 original cap's & 1 retrofit cap's) while running through my old school Kenny KA-9100 amp w/ various music CDs
  • I think there is some 'burn in' time for new capacitors - so will have to let this go on for some several weeks before...
  • if any notable acoustic differences - decide which speaker is most pleasant and then either (a) replace the Klipsch caps' on the working crossover or (b) reinstall the original Klipsh 5.6uF and 27uf cap's on the remaining crossover, leaving the Solen 24.0uF capacitor (as original Klipsch cap lead is toast)

 

BTW - I also encountered for capacitor sourcing Percy Audio:  https://www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf

 

Maybe not the most eloquent but that pretty much seems to be the situation at hand.  Will come back and report on how this turns out - thank you again to the forum guidance and recommendations.  Wish everyone a great holiday and 2022!!

 

Best Regards,

Rick

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9 hours ago, geoff. said:

 

 

 

Dave, I apologize if my assumption about ESR has lead to your assumption that I have some secret files, lol.

 

I have only what I have managed to absorb on this, and a few other audio forums.

 

I would also like to know “what is the allowable resistance range”.

 

These are great questions that an engineer would be qualified to answer.

 

Heck I was hoping you had the answer.

 

10 hours ago, mark1101 said:

When you stack caps of different values you create uneven time constants which adds smear.

 

Until I started using active systems with time delays I didn't realize how "unclear" passive networks can be..........and how you can screw them up even worse by messing with someone's design.

OK could you explain how this smear happens?  I never change values on crossovers either and stay with the values used by the OEM. On rare occasions I do things like Claude's crossover mod for Super Heresy's as I figure he knows what he is doing judging by the results he gets. Apparently stacking caps was allowed at times with Klipsch crossovers as I remember reading that two lesser value caps could be used in lieu of a single cap on some of the schematics.

 

  I agree with active is better but passive can sound pretty darned good to.

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12 hours ago, Dave A said:

It will reduce ESR when you use two caps and not one. I don't know how it does this but I can see it in measurements.

ESR is reduced when capacitors are in parallel. It is a resistance after all, and providing twin paths gets twice the wire gauge, thus,  half the resistive component of the cap.

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8 hours ago, Dave A said:

Heck I was hoping you had the answer.

 

OK could you explain how this smear happens?  I never change values on crossovers either and stay with the values used by the OEM. On rare occasions I do things like Claude's crossover mod for Super Heresy's as I figure he knows what he is doing judging by the results he gets. Apparently stacking caps was allowed at times with Klipsch crossovers as I remember reading that two lesser value caps could be used in lieu of a single cap on some of the schematics.

 

  I agree with active is better but passive can sound pretty darned good to.

As long as you stack caps with the same values the twin paths (assuming 2 caps) should not be a problem.  It is when you mix caps of significantly different values you provide two paths with different timing.  That is where the smear occurs.

 

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34 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

As long as you stack caps with the same values the twin paths (assuming 2 caps) should not be a problem.  It is when you mix caps of significantly different values you provide two paths with different timing.  That is where the smear occurs.

 

When you refer to timing are you talking about the length electricity has to travel in one cap vs the other? I looked up speed of electricity and what a can of worms that was and differing conditions and answers. I have people who maintain they can hear the difference of a freestanding tweeter being moved front to back just a few inches and perhaps they can. The human eye can perceive 1,000,000 colors, or so I read today.  I sometimes think the minutiae drags down important things that matter to inconsequential levels while in pursuit of fixing that .001% of the problem.

 

  Now on my Super MWM's there was no question that time aligning and active DSP made it sound awesome. 108" throat depth though. On a speaker that has maybe 6" between mid and tweeter and woofer? At what point do these things become academic and not real world relevant?

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

At what point do these things become academic and not real world relevant?

 

When you ear tells you that it either matters or doesn't.

 

I have my lascalas which are electrically excellent (and use passive networks) connected to the same McIntosh preamp as my Jubilees (digital processor).  When I A/B them I sometimes wonder why I even own lascalas the difference is so great and they sound so smeared compared to the time aligned Jubs.

 

Listening to just the lascalas again by themselves after a few days........hey these speakers sound darn good.

 

Crazy hobby.

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26 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

When you ear tells you that it either matters or doesn't.

Ha Ha and yes that is how I operate. Interesting comment on the La Scalas. When I get done fixing up speakers I normally listen to them for a few days. I start off thinking how puny they are to the S-MWM's but in a day or so thinking I could live with these if I had too.

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3 hours ago, mark1101 said:

It s not "length" as in a distance path.  It is length of signal time travel due to charge/discharge based on differing capacitance and resistance values.

 

 

Makes you wonder about bypass caps.

 

I'm trying to research this regarding ac circuits (audio). A smaller cap value will fully charge before a larger cap value. Maybe this is the idea behind battery biasing the caps in your crossover.

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19 hours ago, Marvel said:

 

Makes you wonder about bypass caps.

 

I'm trying to research this regarding ac circuits (audio). A smaller cap value will fully charge before a larger cap value. Maybe this is the idea behind battery biasing the caps in your crossover.

 

I was always aware of bypass caps and that theory they improve the sound (somehow).  I never tried doing that.  It just does not make sense to me based on the science of how caps work and wanting to have a single clear signal path.  Obviously, some folks hear an improvement apparently.

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On 12/21/2021 at 8:56 PM, rszoke said:

OK - after digesting the feedback and what I've learned, I have this strategy:

  • will get a 2x capacitor set from Parts Connexion:  Solen Capacitor 24.0uF 400Vdc PB Series + Solen Capacitor 27.0uF 400Vdc PB SeriesMundorf Capacitor 5.60uF 250Vdc MCap Classic (MKP)
  • since I have 1 working crossover - I will replace the entire capacitor set on the inoperable crossover
  • direct compare both speakers (1 original cap's & 1 retrofit cap's) while running through my old school Kenny KA-9100 amp w/ various music CDs
  • I think there is some 'burn in' time for new capacitors - so will have to let this go on for some several weeks before...
  • if any notable acoustic differences - decide which speaker is most pleasant and then either (a) replace the Klipsch caps' on the working crossover or (b) reinstall the original Klipsh 5.6uF and 27uf cap's on the remaining crossover, leaving the Solen 24.0uF capacitor (as original Klipsch cap lead is toast)

 

BTW - I also encountered for capacitor sourcing Percy Audio:  https://www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf

 

Maybe not the most eloquent but that pretty much seems to be the situation at hand.  Will come back and report on how this turns out - thank you again to the forum guidance and recommendations.  Wish everyone a great holiday and 2022!!

 

Best Regards,

Rick

 

might be a little late for a cap suggestion, but just in case here is another source for caps & many other items..  ERSE is what crites uses for all their other components on their x-overs & bob suggested the ERSE polypropylene "pulse x" caps as a very good budget cap that are as good or better than other budget caps like dayton & solen etc & they measure very low ESR.  they carry many of the klipsch values including all the ones needed for your crossovers & they are priced better than most others  & have fast low price shipping. 

 

i have used ERSE in a few klipsch speakers & other brands & they sound very good to my ears & really improved the sound of my chorus2 speakers but the caps in them were definitely bad, sounded like a towel was covering the front of the speakers. They sell the mylar type caps too that are what klipsch uses. 

 

https://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PulseX250v

 

& just an FYI: according to bob crites capacitors do not have or require burn in...  

 

 

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On 12/21/2021 at 9:56 PM, rszoke said:

 

  • since I have 1 working crossover - I will replace the entire capacitor set on the inoperable crossove

Rick

Rick

no need to replace  perfectly running  Klipsch Factory  capacitors , the good caps can stay -

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