KP-302/3002 High Frequency Speaker - Intermittent & Scratchy Sound - Resolved, Bad Cap' Connection

[001]

23 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

Crites uses Sonicaps for capacitors and Universal Transformer for inductors.

 

Where exactly does ERSE come in?

 

im aware they use sonicaps, bob told me he orders many of his parts for x-overs from erse & also suggested their caps as the best budget caps hes tested.  sorry if im off on what they use for other parts, just going by what he said a few years ago. & they use the ERSE electrolytics for pretty much all their x-overs i have seen.  

[001]

20 hours ago, Dave A said:

I am not crazy about Erse caps though they do offer many values. What I do get from them are Super Q crossover coils which are really good FYI.

 

can you elaborate on why youre not crazy about them?  bob said they tested as good or better than other popular brands of budget caps & for a long time is what he offered as an alternative to sonicaps for people on a tight budget or speakers not worth the more expensive sonicaps... although now i think michael is using or recommending daytons as budget alternatives.

 

they also get very good reviews from others out there that use them with other brand speakers.  i have used them in a few different klipsch ranging from chorus2 & forte 2 to kg4 & 5.5 as well as some other brands of speakers, they all sound very good to me, as good or better than the stock caps they replaced. 

 

but as usual with this touchy subject, lots of different opinions & situations.  

[captainbeefheart]

On 12/21/2021 at 12:57 PM, Dave A said:

Well I might disagree on this one. It will reduce ESR when you use two caps and not one. I don't know how it does this but I can see it in measurements. I also don't know how important the minor drop in ESR is when you do this. Price wise if you are not buying expensive caps you won't be spending much more at all.

 

When paralleling capacitors remember they too have parasitic properties like inductance, depending on these variable you may end up with a resonance somewhere you don't want it, like in the tweeter network.

[Dave A]

54 minutes ago, EpicKlipschFan said:

can you elaborate on why youre not crazy about them? 

Sure. It has been a while since I ordered them and the reason for that was they were always running out and I would get partial orders. They had their chance and I just got tired of waiting. This was way before the current nonsense by the way. I never discussed caps with Bob other than his use of electrolytics for woofer circuits which I disagreed with. I got my B&K 885 meter after I quit ordering caps from Erse so I have not had a chance to measure any.

 

  I have ended up using Dayton and Audyn caps for a couple of years now. I wonder why Micheal has moved to Daytons? For my money they are economical and sound good, to me of course, and PE tells me up front if they are in stock so no here is part of your order suprises.

[Dave A]

36 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

When paralleling capacitors remember they too have parasitic properties like inductance, depending on these variable you may end up with a resonance somewhere you don't want it, like in the tweeter network.

I suppose anything is possible but I read far more for then against and I see what I measure. To be honest I can't hear a difference and my opinion is based on what I have read and ESR measurements I have done. I have no way of detecting what you reference so even if it was there I could not fix it. Nor would I try since I am basically happy with results I get.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 12/22/2021 at 8:57 AM, mark1101 said:

As long as you stack caps with the same values the twin paths (assuming 2 caps) should not be a problem.  It is when you mix caps of significantly different values you provide two paths with different timing.  That is where the smear occurs.

 

So how do you explain the esoteric audio "tweakheads" use of bypass capacitors with small values?

[001]

1 hour ago, Dave A said:

Sure. It has been a while since I ordered them and the reason for that was they were always running out and I would get partial orders. They had their chance and I just got tired of waiting. This was way before the current nonsense by the way. I never discussed caps with Bob other than his use of electrolytics for woofer circuits which I disagreed with. I got my B&K 885 meter after I quit ordering caps from Erse so I have not had a chance to measure any.

 

  I have ended up using Dayton and Audyn caps for a couple of years now. I wonder why Micheal has moved to Daytons? For my money they are economical and sound good, to me of course, and PE tells me up front if they are in stock so no here is part of your order suprises.

 

thanks for the info, was just curious if you didnt like the sound or reliability of them for some reason. 

 

my experience with ERSE & items in stock has never been an issue,  but then again im only buying smaller orders each time,  i have placed at least 5 orders from them in the last 3-4 years & they are always in stock for the caps i needed & ship very fast via USPS first class mail if under 1lb & no min order or order fee that some places have... also way more econimical prices than PE for daytons etc.  i did have to call them 1 time when a lytic cap showed out of stock, the lady answered the phone on the 3rd or 4th ring & was very helpful, she said they can make almost any cap since they are the manufacturer & not a retailer & she was able to have it done by the time my order shipped in a couple days.  maybe try them out again or call ahead to be sure the parts you need are in stock?? but usually the website shows if something is out of stock. 

 

i dont have much to say about the  lytics on the woofer circuit, can only go by what was explained to me that the woofer circuit is basically a "dump" & doesnt have much if any effect on the sound... & the fact that klipsch uses lytics in their woofer sections for most models, & what they say/do is not to be questioned... 

[captainbeefheart]

2 hours ago, Dave A said:

I never discussed caps with Bob other than his use of electrolytics for woofer circuits which I disagreed with. I got my B&K 885 meter after I quit ordering caps from Erse so I have not had a chance to measure any.

 

Why do you not use an Aluminum electrolytic capacitor for the woofer circuit? If you notice in simulation with a "perfect" capacitor you will get a resonant peak around 355Hz, the ESR of the electrolytic will flatten it out.

 

Also at what frequency does your tester test ESR at? It's important to note that ESR will change with frequency so it's important to test the capacitors at the frequencies to which is important for the application. E.g. Tweeter caps test 5kHz and up.

[captainbeefheart]

Found this about the 885;

 

"Test conditions: 100 Hz, 120 Hz, 1 kHz, 10 kHz, 100 kHz (886), 1 Vrms, 0.25 Vrms, 0.05 Vrms"

 

At least it doesn't just test at 100Hz like many people are using to check their crossover caps which is useless. You have the ability to test the 13uF cap with the 1kHz setting and the two 2uF caps 10kHz, that will give you a better idea how they are doing in that application. 

 

 

[Dave A]

2 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:

Found this about the 885;

 

"Test conditions: 100 Hz, 120 Hz, 1 kHz, 10 kHz, 100 kHz (886), 1 Vrms, 0.25 Vrms, 0.05 Vrms"

 

At least it doesn't just test at 100Hz like many people are using to check their crossover caps which is useless. You have the ability to test the 13uF cap with the 1kHz setting and the two 2uF caps 10kHz, that will give you a better idea how they are doing in that application. 

 

 

My reason for buying this was Bob Crites used it for this purpose. I found Bob's advice over a number of years to be good and as I have said the only thing I ever disagreed with him on was woofer caps. If it was good enough for him it is good enough for me. I find your "at least it doesn't just" comment somewhat amusing as that is what I think of people using Fluke Multi meters for capacitors. I have no worries about what my meter tells me though.

 

  As often as I have told the story of why I use poly caps for woofer circuits I guess I should just write it up and save it so I can copy paste in the future. I think you were part of a thread where I mentioned this but I will do so again.

 

 

So here is my copy and paste why I use poly caps on woofer circuits.

 

  First off is life span. All I have read says electrolytic's last a shorter period of time so since I do not need to pay attention to a penny pinching accountant I use all poly caps. Should have a roughly similar life as the rest of the crossover caps.

 

  More importantly I ran across polypropylene or polyester caps,  but in any case a film cap, with a pro speaker. Up until then I used whatever was on the crossovers which for woofers was electrolytic. So it was a KP-450 which has the same two woofer bass bin from then all the way until today where it is still in current production with only minor changes. It sounded really good and was my introduction to higher end Klipsch Pro gear.

 

 So I open the bass bin and there sites a 50uf Dayton polypropylene cap. No one admitted to recaping them and they figured it was a stock crossover. I had a set of MCM-1900's with a Klipsch OEM three way crossover and it also used all poly caps.

 

  Because of this I started using things like 67uf polypropylene caps for KP-301's and Chorus speakers. These poly caps sounded better to me and I have never quit using them to this day.

 

 I have some current version KPT-942 crossovers and sitting right there is a big fat ol polyester 50uf cap. Not one electrolytic in sight. Whether it provides as an adjunct to the superior headroom pro gear has or is more durable under load or simply lasts longer in hard environments or all three I don't know. I change everything over to these poly caps now as it is just too cheap not to and I have never disliked the result.

[captainbeefheart]

3 hours ago, Dave A said:

My reason for buying this was Bob Crites used it for this purpose. I found Bob's advice over a number of years to be good and as I have said the only thing I ever disagreed with him on was woofer caps. If it was good enough for him it is good enough for me. I find your "at least it doesn't just" comment somewhat amusing as that is what I think of people using Fluke Multi meters for capacitors. I have no worries about what my meter tells me though.

 

  As often as I have told the story of why I use poly caps for woofer circuits I guess I should just write it up and save it so I can copy paste in the future. I think you were part of a thread where I mentioned this but I will do so again.

 

 

So here is my copy and paste why I use poly caps on woofer circuits.

 

  First off is life span. All I have read says electrolytic's last a shorter period of time so since I do not need to pay attention to a penny pinching accountant I use all poly caps. Should have a roughly similar life as the rest of the crossover caps.

 

  More importantly I ran across polypropylene or polyester caps,  but in any case a film cap, with a pro speaker. Up until then I used whatever was on the crossovers which for woofers was electrolytic. So it was a KP-450 which has the same two woofer bass bin from then all the way until today where it is still in current production with only minor changes. It sounded really good and was my introduction to higher end Klipsch Pro gear.

 

 So I open the bass bin and there sites a 50uf Dayton polypropylene cap. No one admitted to recaping them and they figured it was a stock crossover. I had a set of MCM-1900's with a Klipsch OEM three way crossover and it also used all poly caps.

 

  Because of this I started using things like 67uf polypropylene caps for KP-301's and Chorus speakers. These poly caps sounded better to me and I have never quit using them to this day.

 

 I have some current version KPT-942 crossovers and sitting right there is a big fat ol polyester 50uf cap. Not one electrolytic in sight. Whether it provides as an adjunct to the superior headroom pro gear has or is more durable under load or simply lasts longer in hard environments or all three I don't know. I change everything over to these poly caps now as it is just too cheap not to and I have never disliked the result.

 

There is a big assumption there that they only used an aluminum electrolytic only because of cost. Us engineers learn things, many times the extra ESR is chosen not because of price but because the specific properties give an added advantage. In this case there is going to be a resonant frequency around ~355Hz from the filter, the ESR of the cap helps dampen the oscillation and flattens it out. Now if you do want to use a film capacitor for longer service life you would then have to add the extra resistance into the circuit to dampen it. Regulator circuits same thing, choosing decouple capacitor type has the same issue, too low ESR it's unstable, too high same thing so you end up choosing a tantalum. For example I was designing a regulation circuit the recently and the 6v low dropout regulator datasheet went into great detail about this in order to get the best results with their product. Some guys just slapping together a product for market and doesn't do his homework the device ends up not having a short service life. Happens far too much.

 

The end result is all that matters, you happen to use a film cap in that position and ended up liking the way it sounds and your happy it's a win.

[Dave A]

9 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

There is a big assumption there that they only used an aluminum electrolytic only because of cost. Us engineers learn things, many times the extra ESR is chosen not because of price but because the specific properties give an added advantage. In this case there is going to be a resonant frequency around ~355Hz from the filter, the ESR of the cap helps dampen the oscillation and flattens it out. Now if you do want to use a film capacitor for longer service life you would then have to add the extra resistance into the circuit to dampen it. Regulator circuits same thing, choosing decouple capacitor type has the same issue, too low ESR it's unstable, too high same thing so you end up choosing a tantalum. For example I was designing a regulation circuit the recently and the 6v low dropout regulator datasheet went into great detail about this in order to get the best results with their product. Some guys just slapping together a product for market and doesn't do his homework the device ends up not having a short service life. Happens far too much.

 

The end result is all that matters, you happen to use a film cap in that position and ended up liking the way it sounds and your happy it's a win.

OK giving you the benefit of your claimed expertise when are you going to present us with a correctly designed crossover? Something that would take the place of perhaps an AA. I want to see and listen to an example of what you feel would be correct design parameters. I tend to pay a lot more attention to people who provide examples and how to's and have audio examples I can listen to. Lectures on proper engineering implementation with no practical real world example followups is not helpful. Curves and charts are indicators only that may be very good but until you supply examples it is academic.

 

 Example. I took the 67uf aluminum electrolytic capacitor from a Chorus crossovers and replaced it with a Tantalum (or whatever) and here is what I found. Example. I took an AA crossover and replaced a with b and here is what I found. How did it sound and since you are a measuring guru what about the results you obtained for better or worse both audibly and electronically? What were your reasons for replacing the component and then the results would also do.

[OO1]

11 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

The end result is all that matters, you happen to use a film cap in that position and ended up liking the way it sounds and your happy it's a win.

[mark1101]

20 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

So how do you explain the esoteric audio "tweakheads" use of bypass capacitors with small values?

 

Well I discussed this already on page 2 here.

 

But I don't have an answer for many things people do in audio and say they make better sound.

 

I just got a $250 carbon USB cable for "improved" streaming.  I swore I would never try such a thing (pricey cable).

 

So what do you think I will hear?  I have been using a $25 mono price USB cable and have been happy.

[ClaudeJ1]

16 hours ago, Dave A said:

I change everything over to these poly caps now as it is just too cheap not to and I have never disliked the result.

Hear hear. Tell it, brother Dave, tell it!

[captainbeefheart]

7 hours ago, Dave A said:

OK giving you the benefit of your claimed expertise when are you going to present us with a correctly designed crossover? Something that would take the place of perhaps an AA. I want to see and listen to an example of what you feel would be correct design parameters. I tend to pay a lot more attention to people who provide examples and how to's and have audio examples I can listen to. Lectures on proper engineering implementation with no practical real world example followups is not helpful. Curves and charts are indicators only that may be very good but until you supply examples it is academic.

 

 Example. I took the 67uf aluminum electrolytic capacitor from a Chorus crossovers and replaced it with a Tantalum (or whatever) and here is what I found. Example. I took an AA crossover and replaced a with b and here is what I found. How did it sound and since you are a measuring guru what about the results you obtained for better or worse both audibly and electronically? What were your reasons for replacing the component and then the results would also do.

 

This simulation shows the extra ESR from the aluminum electrolytic dampens the resonance. Instead of adding the ESR into the capacitor model I just added a resistor in series in order for people to see I am actually adding the resistance into the circuit and it clearly showing a MUCH flatter response.

[Chief bonehead]

What will the acoustic response look like?

[OO1]

@captainbeefheart

[babadono]

Way, way off topic.....Merry Christmas Roy  @Chief bonehead

[captainbeefheart]

8 hours ago, Chief bonehead said:

What will the acoustic response look like?

 

Good question.

 

Since we are seeing in the electrical simulation that the ~355Hz resonance from the 245mH inductor and 80uF cap is now damped better, it should be a more accurate transfer of signal to driver. And, if whatever speaker the network is installed in has any anomalies in that frequency range it will exacerbate it less vs the peaking non-damped signal.

 

So in short, I imagine a cleaner image and more accurate reproduction.

 

I will try and find the woofer voice coil inductance or even measure it if I have to and add it in series to the DCR load in the simulation.