mopardave Posted December 26, 2021 Share Posted December 26, 2021 Just curious what the guys here are doing with attenuation, how much at a time, 1db, 2db or 3db? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted December 26, 2021 Share Posted December 26, 2021 Folks here argue over immeasurable differences with things. You betcha one makes a difference. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 26, 2021 Share Posted December 26, 2021 Indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted December 26, 2021 Share Posted December 26, 2021 I usually adjust 1 dB at a time, ultimately I fine-tune to ½ dB, but only after a long time listening. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted December 26, 2021 Author Share Posted December 26, 2021 19 minutes ago, Edgar said: I usually adjust 1 dB at a time, ultimately I fine-tune to ½ dB, but only after a long time listening. Ok, i will try that next time i get the backs off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted December 26, 2021 Share Posted December 26, 2021 23 minutes ago, Edgar said: I usually adjust 1 dB at a time, ultimately I fine-tune to ½ dB, but only after a long time listening. That's cuz you can't hear it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted December 26, 2021 Author Share Posted December 26, 2021 1 hour ago, babadono said: That's cuz you can't hear it That's what i thought, but wasn't sure. I think the human ear hears in 3db increments. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 39 minutes ago, mopardave said: I think the human ear hears in 3db increments. You can train yourself to discern much smaller changes than 3 dB. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 1 hour ago, mopardave said: I think the human ear hears in 3db increments. At the training studio at SFSU (in the 1970s) 3dB correction in the treble was way too much of a change to be a JND. In music with a lot of midrange and treble, through Khorns, I sometimes think I can notice a 1/2 dB change; I can definitely hear a 1 dB change. Google produced this: "A useful general reference is that the just noticeable difference in sound intensity for the human ear is about 1 decibel. ... The jnd is about 1 dB for soft sounds around 30-40 dB* at low and midrange frequencies. It may drop to 1/3 to 1/2 a decibel for loud sounds." http://physics.gmu.edu › ~dmaria › sound › DB *For music, moderate level is 75 to 85 dB, loud is 90 to 100 dB, with instantaneous peaks (perhaps 1/4 to 1/3 second, or less) up to 110 dB in a living room; the leading edges of some peaks have been measured as high as 120 dB in a concert hall, close up. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted December 27, 2021 Share Posted December 27, 2021 2 hours ago, mopardave said: That's what i thought, but wasn't sure. I think the human ear hears in 3db increments. Please don't take what I posted as fact, hence the big grinning face. I will not tell people seriously what they can or cannot hear. For me back when I was much younger a 1dB change was barely perceivable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolox Posted December 29, 2021 Share Posted December 29, 2021 You can most definitely hear a 1dB change of output in a midrange or tweeter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted December 30, 2021 Author Share Posted December 30, 2021 On 12/29/2021 at 3:37 AM, Rolox said: You can most definitely hear a 1dB change of output in a midrange or tweeter. With all of the listening i have done in the last few days, I think the woofer needs to be louder. I still believe a woofer replacement is in order. I do believe the Kappalite 3015LF is a great woofer, but as Claude mentioned, its a great woofer at very high volumes. The highs and mids sound almost perfect to my ear. Music material makes a difference as well. You need good recordings. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 18, 2022 Author Share Posted March 18, 2022 On 12/30/2021 at 9:16 AM, mopardave said: With all of the listening i have done in the last few days, I think the woofer needs to be louder. I still believe a woofer replacement is in order. I do believe the Kappalite 3015LF is a great woofer, but as Claude mentioned, its a great woofer at very high volumes. The highs and mids sound almost perfect to my ear. Music material makes a difference as well. You need good recordings. UPDATE: Bought 2 new Crites 1526 woofers and although Crites suggests 5-10hr breakin, once installed, i could hear more bass. They filled the low end hole i was hearing. The Kappalite 3015LF i was using might be a better woofer for the combo at 100db listening levels, but not where i listen(70-85db). Has a richer sound, i really like it. Still attenuating the B&C DE85 mids at 8db on the zxpc horn. Checked out the B&C website for specs on the DE85 and the list the sensitivity at 108db, the 1526 is 95db. So i am running my mids 5db above the woofer, so a bit hotter. It does sound very nice and balanced. Will have to experiment with that more once the woofer have some time. So do you think that 5DB hotter than the woofer is in the range for attenuation or what is the norm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 3 hours ago, mopardave said: Checked out the B&C website for specs on the DE85 and the list the sensitivity at 108db, the 1526 is 95db. So i am running my mids 5db above the woofer, so a bit hotter. It does sound very nice and balanced. Will have to experiment with that more once the woofer have some time. So do you think that 5DB hotter than the woofer is in the range for attenuation or what is the norm? The cabinet will increase the sensitivity of the woofer possibly by a few db-- after they break in a bit I'd measure their output with an SPL meter to know what you're working with to be sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 You should be able to hear a 1 dB difference, but over a wide range, !like the whole tweeter spectrum, 1 dB will sound more like flavor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 18, 2022 Author Share Posted March 18, 2022 1 hour ago, JohnA said: You should be able to hear a 1 dB difference, but over a wide range, !like the whole tweeter spectrum, 1 dB will sound more like flavor. I have been playing jazz all day at 80+db. Should be there now. Definitely an improvement. All smiles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 19, 2022 Author Share Posted March 19, 2022 14 hours ago, JohnA said: You should be able to hear a 1 dB difference, but over a wide range, !like the whole tweeter spectrum, 1 dB will sound more like flavor. I agree with the flavor 100%. I read thru the Cornwall testing papers and Klipsch set attenuation on the mid at 5db. Currently mine is at 5db as well and i like it there. The zxpc horn could ask for a different setting compared to the 600 horn in the Cornwall i suppose. At 5db it sounds very balanced until you pump it up around 90-95db, then the highs start sounding just a bit too high, but that may be the DE120 as i run that with 0 attenuation. Primarily listening around the 80-85db sounds and feels very nice. Next up i will get some heavier wire inside the cabinet and dampen the mid horn to see what that does if anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted March 19, 2022 Share Posted March 19, 2022 On 12/26/2021 at 11:37 AM, mopardave said: Just curious what the guys here are doing with attenuation, how much at a time, 1db... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevePaul Posted March 24, 2022 Share Posted March 24, 2022 On 3/18/2022 at 9:33 AM, mopardave said: UPDATE: Bought 2 new Crites 1526 woofers and although Crites suggests 5-10hr breakin, once installed, i could hear more bass. They filled the low end hole i was hearing. The Kappalite 3015LF i was using might be a better woofer for the combo at 100db listening levels, but not where i listen(70-85db). Has a richer sound, i really like it. Still attenuating the B&C DE85 mids at 8db on the zxpc horn. Checked out the B&C website for specs on the DE85 and the list the sensitivity at 108db, the 1526 is 95db. So i am running my mids 5db above the woofer, so a bit hotter. It does sound very nice and balanced. Will have to experiment with that more once the woofer have some time. So do you think that 5DB hotter than the woofer is in the range for attenuation or what is the norm? I am surprised at that level of difference between the woofer and mid & tweet - 5 db - and that it still sounds good. I had Meniscus Audio create some new 24db/octave xovers for my Chorus II's, years back, and had them voice them progressively 3-4db down at around 15,000hz, from the woofer level at 60hz. Low level listening was good and absolutely sang like Pavoratti at 110+db with little shrillness (I used to have the kids in the neighborhood dancing in the middle of the road when I turned it up). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 24, 2022 Author Share Posted March 24, 2022 17 minutes ago, StevePaul said: I am surprised at that level of difference between the woofer and mid & tweet - 5 db - and that it still sounds good. I had Meniscus Audio create some new 24db/octave xovers for my Chorus II's, years back, and had them voice them progressively 3-4db down at around 15,000hz, from the woofer level at 60hz. Low level listening was good and absolutely sang like Pavoratti at 110+db with little shrillness (I used to have the kids in the neighborhood dancing in the middle of the road when I turned it up). Sounds great to my ears, but im yet to try them again with different attenuation. Might be the large ZXPC mid horn as it is very laid back compared to a k600 . In the Cornwall test article they say Klipsch attenuated the mids 5db over the k33e sensitivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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