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Attenuation setting changes in 1db worth it?


mopardave

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1 hour ago, mopardave said:

I think the human ear hears in 3db increments.

  • At the training studio at SFSU (in the 1970s) 3dB correction in the treble was way too much of a change to be a JND. 
  • In music with a lot of midrange and treble, through Khorns, I sometimes think I can notice a 1/2 dB change; I can definitely hear a 1 dB change.
  • Google produced this:
    "A useful general reference is that the just noticeable difference in sound intensity for the human ear is about 1 decibel. ... The jnd is about 1 dB for soft sounds around 30-40 dB* at low and midrange frequencies.  It may drop to 1/3 to 1/2 a decibel for loud sounds."
     
    *For music, moderate level is 75 to 85 dB, loud is 90 to 100 dB, with instantaneous peaks (perhaps 1/4 to 1/3 second, or less) up to 110 dB in a living room; the leading edges of some peaks have been measured as high as 120 dB in a concert hall, close up.

 

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2 hours ago, mopardave said:

That's what i thought, but wasn't sure.  I think the human ear hears in 3db increments.

Please don't take what I posted as fact, hence the big grinning face. I will not tell people seriously what they can or cannot hear. For me back when I was much younger a 1dB change was barely perceivable.

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On 12/29/2021 at 3:37 AM, Rolox said:

You can most definitely hear a 1dB change of output in a midrange or tweeter.

With all of the listening i have done in the last few days, I think the woofer needs to be louder.  I still believe a woofer replacement is in order.  I do believe the Kappalite 3015LF is a great woofer, but as Claude mentioned, its a great woofer at very high volumes.    The highs and mids sound almost perfect to my ear.   Music material makes a difference as well.  You need good recordings.

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  • 2 months later...
On 12/30/2021 at 9:16 AM, mopardave said:

With all of the listening i have done in the last few days, I think the woofer needs to be louder.  I still believe a woofer replacement is in order.  I do believe the Kappalite 3015LF is a great woofer, but as Claude mentioned, its a great woofer at very high volumes.    The highs and mids sound almost perfect to my ear.   Music material makes a difference as well.  You need good recordings.

UPDATE: Bought 2 new Crites 1526 woofers and although Crites suggests 5-10hr breakin, once installed, i could hear more bass. They filled the low end hole i was hearing.  The Kappalite 3015LF i was using might be a better woofer for the combo at 100db listening levels, but not where i listen(70-85db).  Has a richer sound, i really like it.  Still attenuating the B&C DE85 mids at 8db on the zxpc horn.  Checked out the B&C website for specs on the DE85 and the list the sensitivity at 108db, the 1526 is 95db. So i am running my mids  5db above the woofer, so a bit hotter. It does sound very nice and balanced.  Will have to experiment with that more once the woofer have some time.  So do you think that 5DB hotter than the woofer is in the range for attenuation or what is the norm?   

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3 hours ago, mopardave said:

Checked out the B&C website for specs on the DE85 and the list the sensitivity at 108db, the 1526 is 95db. So i am running my mids  5db above the woofer, so a bit hotter. It does sound very nice and balanced.  Will have to experiment with that more once the woofer have some time.  So do you think that 5DB hotter than the woofer is in the range for attenuation or what is the norm?   

The cabinet will increase the sensitivity of the woofer possibly by a few db-- after they break in a bit I'd measure their output with an SPL meter to know what you're working with to be sure.

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1 hour ago, JohnA said:

You should be able to hear a 1 dB difference, but over a wide range, !like the whole tweeter spectrum, 1 dB will sound more like flavor. 

I have been playing jazz all day at 80+db.    Should be there now.   Definitely an improvement.   All smiles.

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14 hours ago, JohnA said:

You should be able to hear a 1 dB difference, but over a wide range, !like the whole tweeter spectrum, 1 dB will sound more like flavor. 

I agree with the flavor 100%.  I read thru the Cornwall testing papers and Klipsch set attenuation on the mid at 5db.  Currently mine is at 5db as well and i like it there.  The zxpc horn could ask for a different setting compared to the 600 horn in the Cornwall i suppose.  At 5db it sounds very balanced until you pump it up around 90-95db, then the highs start sounding just a bit too high, but that may be the DE120 as i run that with 0 attenuation.   Primarily listening around the 80-85db sounds and feels very nice.   Next up i will get some heavier wire inside the cabinet and dampen the mid horn to see what that does if anything.

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On 3/18/2022 at 9:33 AM, mopardave said:

UPDATE: Bought 2 new Crites 1526 woofers and although Crites suggests 5-10hr breakin, once installed, i could hear more bass. They filled the low end hole i was hearing.  The Kappalite 3015LF i was using might be a better woofer for the combo at 100db listening levels, but not where i listen(70-85db).  Has a richer sound, i really like it.  Still attenuating the B&C DE85 mids at 8db on the zxpc horn.  Checked out the B&C website for specs on the DE85 and the list the sensitivity at 108db, the 1526 is 95db. So i am running my mids  5db above the woofer, so a bit hotter. It does sound very nice and balanced.  Will have to experiment with that more once the woofer have some time.  So do you think that 5DB hotter than the woofer is in the range for attenuation or what is the norm?   

I am surprised at that level of difference between the woofer and mid & tweet - 5 db - and that it still sounds good.  I had Meniscus Audio create some new 24db/octave xovers for my Chorus II's, years back, and had them voice them progressively 3-4db down at around 15,000hz, from the woofer level at 60hz.  Low level listening was good and absolutely sang like Pavoratti at 110+db with little shrillness (I used to have the kids in the neighborhood dancing in the middle of the road when I turned it up). 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, StevePaul said:

I am surprised at that level of difference between the woofer and mid & tweet - 5 db - and that it still sounds good.  I had Meniscus Audio create some new 24db/octave xovers for my Chorus II's, years back, and had them voice them progressively 3-4db down at around 15,000hz, from the woofer level at 60hz.  Low level listening was good and absolutely sang like Pavoratti at 110+db with little shrillness (I used to have the kids in the neighborhood dancing in the middle of the road when I turned it up). 

 

 

Sounds great to my ears, but im yet to try them again with different attenuation. Might be the large ZXPC mid horn as it is very laid back compared to a k600 .     In the Cornwall test article they say Klipsch attenuated the mids 5db over the k33e sensitivity.

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