jjptkd Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 Not to put the cart before the horse here on test results but the Carver 275 thread got me thinking about this as a recent purchaser of a Brand new model at $2750 this not a small amount of money for me-- The amplifier is rated at 75x2 and preliminary test results at least on the kit amps is actually 17x2, obviously a huge difference. If the brand new factory produced versions test the same I cannot believe that the company is unaware of this fact and would seem to me to be marketing these things at best dishonestly if not down right fraudulently. Now as a long time Carver / Sunfire fanboy I may have still purchased this amp had it been advertised at a more accurate spec of say 20wpc-- but then again maybe not as the choices at this price point and power rating are many. Assuming the production amplifier test results come back the same as the kit amps, significantly below rated spec is there any recourse for those who've purchased these amps? Who would be responsible? Here's a link to the thread for those who haven't seen it: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/carver-crimson-275-measurements.29271/ As I've said before I love this amplifier it does everything I need it to do for me whatever power it actually delivers is enough for my speakers in my space and it's a solid performer in bass clarity and has a nice 3D depth of sound to it, honestly I have no complaints about this amplifier but still if these numbers come back well below spec like everyone seems to think they will I can't help but feel cheated a little, am I wrong in feeling this way? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 I did notice on the spec's supposedly from Carver that the power rating does not specify what rating it is using. Such as most now use RMS rating. My thinking is they are using the deceiving music rating. I am sure you have a very good amplifier no matter what. Best now since you have already purchased is to use your ears and forget about it and just enjoy it for it's lovely sound. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted December 30, 2021 Share Posted December 30, 2021 Sounds like those old Pyramid car audio amplifier watt rating. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boom3 Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 The FTC used to have a requirement to specify RMS power at stated bandwidth and distortion. What happened to that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muel Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 Manufacturers are liable to say just about anything. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boom3 Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 I recall that RCA rated their early 1960s top-of-the-line console stereo at "500 watts". I found the amp schematic in the RCA Receiving Tube Manual and it was 50 watts, RMS-still a solid performer for the time. I think the 500 watts was max draw at the wall plug 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezin' Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 Reminds me of all these guys that came in to the shop for dynomometer testing/tuning. They were sure their motorcycles made "X" amount of horsepower. When they found out what it actually put out they were so disappointed. Up until then they were happy. Did sell a lot of motor work though. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubo Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 Your choices are do something or do nothing Do something is what ? - demand a refund, and a letter telling them they are not in compliance with a regulation. On general principal, I would return the unit for a full refund McIntosh and Yamaha bench test well others too I am sure 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelwjones Posted December 31, 2021 Share Posted December 31, 2021 23 hours ago, jjptkd said: Now as a long time Carver / Sunfire fanboy I may have still purchased this amp had it been advertised at a more accurate spec of say 20wpc... As I've said before I love this amplifier it does everything I need it to do for me whatever power it actually delivers is enough for my speakers in my space and it's a solid performer in bass clarity and has a nice 3D depth of sound to it, honestly I have no complaints about this amplifier but still if these numbers come back well below spec like everyone seems to think they will I can't help but feel cheated a little, am I wrong in feeling this way? First, this is just random thoughts, not a legal opinion, how this all might pan out ASSUMING the specs as as found in the tests. First, you are hardly wrong feeling you may have been hoodwinked. And the anticipation of getting to the bottom of all this is not pleasant. But, until then, keep enjoying the sound! It has been speculated it may not be rated according to FTC rules. If so, one can file a complaint with the FTC. As a buyer, what are your damages? You like the sound, you have sufficient power for your speakers and have no complaints about the amplifier. You even admit you might have purchased it if only putting out 20 watts and that the price point, regardless of the output, is not unrealistic. The thrust of that is if you had been told the accurate power rating (and perhaps auditioned it) you would have purchased anyway. I could just image a class action lawsuit based upon misrepresentation and the ultimate settlement being a retraction of the hype, a more accurate representation, a coupon for owners for $25 off a matched quad of full price KT88s and $2.5 million for the attorneys .In reality, if the ratings are not correct, its probably a reputation destroyer for Carver. Although, interestingly, the info I find on the web does not indicate it is Bob's company, Frank Malitz' Linked In page says he owns the company.: Principal - The Bob Carver Corporation 2020- present Purchased the rights to the Bob Carver brand in December 2019 https://www.linkedin.com/in/frank-malitz-11b2a112 These articles (press releases) indicate he and others are marketing and manufacturing the equipment: https://www.monoandstereo.com/2020/01/glass-audio-america-licenses-bob-carver.html https://www.av2day.com/2020/02/wyred-4-sound-to-make-bob-carvers-tube-amps-under-licence/ All this leading me to speculate Bob merely licensed his name & designs and has no control how the equipment is marketed. Gotta fund your retirement somehow... I really hope the is just a pair of faulty units. But as Captain Beefheat has pointed out, physics is difficult taskmaster and requires significant effort to counter. But hey, how many remember Bob's magnetic field amp, the little cubes with next to nothing inside that put out 400 watts? Physics be damned! Happy new year! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 6 hours ago, michaelwardjones said: could just image a class action lawsuit based upon misrepresentation and the ultimate settlement being a retraction of the hype, a more accurate representation, a coupon for owners for $25 off a matched quad of full price KT88s and $2.5 million for the attorneys . classic. That is what happens. Maybe $25 is a little high. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OO1 Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 On 12/30/2021 at 2:55 PM, jjptkd said: I can't help but feel cheated a little, am I wrong in feeling this way? Cheated is a kind word ,in reality it's False Representation which is Fraudulent , I would ask for a Refund ASAP and send it back if the results are indeed not what is published - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason str Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 If you can return it feeling scammed why don't you. That is a good stack of cash. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 1, 2022 Share Posted January 1, 2022 On 12/30/2021 at 1:55 PM, jjptkd said: As I've said before I love this amplifier it does everything I need it to do for me whatever power it actually delivers is enough for my speakers in my space and it's a solid performer in bass clarity and has a nice 3D depth of sound to it, honestly I have no complaints about this amplifier... Imo, don't be hung up on the specs if it's as you describe...Fwiw, I found out my Klipsch speakers are overrated in their Sensitivity but I never felt the need to complain...Watching/listening to several U2 concerts tonight and don't feel gypped whatsoever!--Rock on and Happy New Year! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelwjones Posted January 2, 2022 Share Posted January 2, 2022 When you get really, really bored today, there are some interesting comments by Frank Malitz on Audiogon's forums re: the Crimson 275: https://forum.audiogon.com/users/fmalitz/posts Its worth reading if only to find this comment in an early review of the amp: "Concerned about the unit’s lack of weight, I called Frank Malitz, Bob Carver’s partner, and who is the current owner of the Bob Carver Corporation, he explained the light weight is due to the proprietary output transformers which actually had a better signal-to-noise ratio due to the nature of the winds, he advised adding more heft was destructive to the soundstage. The other reason he mentioned its lighter weight revolves around the power transformers, all three use a special steel, high-efficiency alloy, due to “magnetostriction”, which forces changes to steel’s molecular structure, which is common in transformers, requiring more sophisticated materials if the transformers are intended for high-performance audio use. Frank also explained Bob claims his specifications for the alloy and the winds are unique to this brand resulting in a high-efficiency yet lighter design. Mr. Malitz claims 90W x 2 within specification, and 130 W at 3% THD which David Manley, founder of VTL, Manley Laboratories,claims is not audible in a tube circuit, but Frank mentioned you can contact him through the Bob Carver website and he’ll send you a white paper on the topic. " Of course the bragging that Carver has no service department because they never need repairs is good too. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted January 3, 2022 Author Share Posted January 3, 2022 4 hours ago, michaelwardjones said: When you get really, really bored today, there are some interesting comments by Frank Malitz on Audiogon's forums re: the Crimson 275: Of course the bragging that Carver has no service department because they never need repairs is good too. Believe me I've read everything published about the amp on every corner of the web before I made my purchase-- I'm just going to wait and see what the factory version test results show hopefully the ones he tested just weren't functioning right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 They are not stupid people, they kinda covered their behinds, I'll explain. Because of the load impedance and high plate voltage it can put out 75 watts, BUT really only in the midrange and with a ridiculously high amount of distortion because the transformer is saturated and does not have enough energy to faithfully maintain reproduce the signal cleanly. Notice how they list the specs for the amplifier, they do not say "less than 1% THD at full rated output power and bandwidth". They just list everything separately like; Power - 75 watts Distortion - <1% Bandwidth - etc............ That way there they can say "well it does put out 75 watts" or "it can reproduce signals from this frequency to this frequency" etc.... Sneaky Sneaky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainbeefheart Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 Here is how it is advertised. As you notice each spec is separated, they never say it puts out 75 watts from 24Hz to 28kHz at less than 1% THD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 On 12/31/2021 at 9:43 PM, Zen Traveler said: On 12/30/2021 at 1:55 PM, jjptkd said: As I've said before I love this amplifier it does everything I need it to do for me whatever power it actually delivers is enough for my speakers in my space and it's a solid performer in bass clarity and has a nice 3D depth of sound to it, honestly I have no complaints about this amplifier... Imo, don't be hung up on the specs if it's as you describe...Fwiw, I found out my Klipsch speakers are overrated in their Sensitivity but I never felt the need to complain...Watching/listening to several U2 concerts tonight and don't feel gypped whatsoever!--Rock on and Happy New Year! I guess I still don't understand the problem. Do you want to find something that delivers the stated power and not meet your needs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 I bet one of my custom built amps the Crimson 275 cannot meet 20Hz to 20kHz @ 1% THD+N at 75 Watts RMS, 8 Ohm load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious_George Posted January 3, 2022 Share Posted January 3, 2022 If you’re willing to pay for shipping one way, I’ll pay for return shipping and I’ll test the amp for you. I’ll make a video of the testing too. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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