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Are Audio Manufacturers Liable for False Claims, Bloated Spec's?


jjptkd

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20 minutes ago, Curious_George said:

If you’re willing to pay for shipping one way, I’ll pay for return shipping and I’ll test the amp for you.

 

I’ll make a video of the testing too. 

 

This would be very helpful to many people that have either purchased the amplifier or are thinking of buying one. It's also very generous to not only test the amp but also pay shipping one way.

 

Honestly it's only 4 screws holding the transformer cover on, a couple pictures of the output transformer will instantly tell us what it is capable of. Obviously that wouldn't be as definitive as actual test measurements but darn close enough for what we need to know.

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OK, time for me to chime in. I owned this all for about a week.  Why?  I got it not even close to as described and one tube had something rattling around inside like a shot light bulb when I received it. I rolled the dice and listened to it, I LOVED the sound of this amp. I may be a bad example here as I have 104 dB efficient speakers, but I cranked it and played with the bias.  I was shocked I actually favored the vintage type of bias if you will.   May have been cable and speaker dependent but... I could NEVER see this amp running out of gas for me and the music it made.... 

 

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20 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

OK, time for me to chime in. I owned this all for about a week.  Why?  I got it not even close to as described and one tube had something rattling around inside like a shot light bulb when I received it. I rolled the dice and listened to it, I LOVED the sound of this amp. I may be a bad example here as I have 104 dB efficient speakers, but I cranked it SUPER loud and played with the bias.  I was shocked I actually favored the vintage type of bias if you will.   May have been cable and speaker dependent but... I could NEVER see this amp running out of gas for me and the sound that came out of it?   Really, really, gives my plinius amp a run for its money when ran in pure class A and TOASTY sucking the wall dry, if I'm to be honest... 

 

That's all it boils down to is if you really like the amplifier who cares about the specs. It obviously isn't cool the way they advertise the specs but this isn't anything new in the amplifier business. The reason McIntosh held their clinics was for this very purpose. For many of us 18 watts is more than enough, and as noted the 275 can put out more power, just at a reduced quality. With 104db speakers you never probably got the amp into the poor performance region. It's kinda slightly better than having a straight up 18 watt amplifier because with say a transient the 18 watt amp would go into clipping with anything past 18 watts where the 275 will at least push more power but the distortion of course is high.

 

Basically I don't think anyone here is questioning the actual sound quality of the amplifier, it's just designed and marketed poorly. Well, marketed poorly for the consumer but great for sales and profits.

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37 minutes ago, HiFi Heaven said:

OBjective vs SUBjective!  Has anybody bothered to WEIGH their Crimson 275?

When I was at Sound of Music (1970's) we sold AMPLIFIERS by the POUND!

 

They weigh 19lbs

 

Absolutely no way a 75 watts per channel all tube stereo amplifier that gets full power down to 20Hz with less than 1% THD only weighs 19 pounds. Two output transformers for that much power down to 20Hz would weigh around 25 pounds.

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7 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

I guess I still don't understand the problem. Do you want to find something that delivers the stated power and not meet your needs?

Two things for me one had I known it was a 15wpc amp I would not have bought new / paid full price and two resale value is likely to be seriously impacted.

 

While its true the amp works great for me and I have no plans to sell I don't think I'm alone in not wanting to be deceived especially when the deception cons me into paying more for something than I otherwise would have. 

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7 hours ago, Curious_George said:

If you’re willing to pay for shipping one way, I’ll pay for return shipping and I’ll test the amp for you.

 

I’ll make a video of the testing too. 

I've reached out to my buddy Bill over at Flannery's Vintage Audio he does a lot of the out of warranty work for Sunfire and only lives about 15 minutes from me I might take my amp over to him for a quick bench test some time this week if he can make the time otherwise the OP on the ASR thread has ordered a brand new factory built amp due in any day now to run the same tests on so we should all know soon enough thanks for the offer though.

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2 hours ago, jjptkd said:

I've reached out to my buddy Bill over at Flannery's Vintage Audio he does a lot of the out of warranty work for Sunfire and only lives about 15 minutes from me I might take my amp over to him for a quick bench test some time this week if he can make the time otherwise the OP on the ASR thread has ordered a brand new factory built amp due in any day now to run the same tests on so we should all know soon enough thanks for the offer though.

 

I don't know when you purchased the amplifier but do still have the owners manual? Some have stated that the newer owners manuals states that the 75 watts of power is 'PEAK' power which would explain the 15 watt continuous power actual rating.

 

I am very interested if you can find where it says this in the owners manual, it would explain a lot and in fact settle this whole debacle.

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36 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

I don't know when you purchased the amplifier but do still have the owners manual? Some have stated that the newer owners manuals states that the 75 watts of power is 'PEAK' power which would explain the 15 watt continuous power actual rating.

 

I am very interested if you can find where it says this in the owners manual, it would explain a lot and in fact settle this whole debacle.

This version does not use "peak" in the representation of power.

 

https://carverstereoforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Crimson-275-Owners-Manual-REV100.pdf

 

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3 minutes ago, henry4841 said:

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/2038602/Bob-Carver-Crimson-275-Stereo.html?page=14#manual

 

Same here but not sure if this is the newer manual though. 

I just found another link to that manual, it does not state "peak" either.

 

https://9d0691c9-2bb0-4a51-acf2-a4e121ccc931.filesusr.com/ugd/7c4708_fe81ce14b4b54e618bcfd77c7628d241.pdf

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6 minutes ago, michaelwardjones said:

I just found another link to that manual, it does not state "peak" either.

 

https://9d0691c9-2bb0-4a51-acf2-a4e121ccc931.filesusr.com/ugd/7c4708_fe81ce14b4b54e618bcfd77c7628d241.pdf

 

"More than 75 Watts Per Channel, both channels driven at eight ohms, from 20Hz to 20kHz with no more than 1% total harmonic distortion."

 

Nothing ambiguous about that.

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8 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

They weigh 19lbs

 

Absolutely no way a 75 watts per channel all tube stereo amplifier that gets full power down to 20Hz with less than 1% THD only weighs 19 pounds. Two output transformers for that much power down to 20Hz would weigh around 25 pounds.

Bob knows this; the specs for his Silver 7 state: Amplifier Chassis: 55 lbs. (25 Kgs) x 2, Power Supply Chassis: 45 lbs. (20.4 Kgs) x 2

 

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3 hours ago, jjptkd said:

 

 

While its true the amp works great for me and I have no plans to sell I don't think I'm alone in not wanting to be deceived especially when the deception cons me into paying more for something than I otherwise would have. 

 

That's the real issue; you love the synergy in your system and had someone said nothing about the specs, but to just listen to the sound (like we all should be doing), you'd be happy. I shudder to think of the equipment I've knowingly purchased and not kept because it ultimately didn't work out or overpaid for but decided to keep it.

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8 hours ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

They weigh 19lbs

 

Absolutely no way a 75 watts per channel all tube stereo amplifier that gets full power down to 20Hz with less than 1% THD only weighs 19 pounds. Two output transformers for that much power down to 20Hz would weigh around 25 pounds.

I wish I had said this:

 

"If an audio company is able to violate some fundamental law of physics, chemistry, magnetics, etc., these are the kinds of discoveries that win you Nobel prizes and millions of dollars. A transformer lamination alloy that would allow for significantly higher flux density than what we have now would be worth a lot of money. This kind of tech tends to trickle down into audio rather than the other way around."

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/carver-crimson-275-measurements.29271/page-13

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4 hours ago, jjptkd said:

I've reached out to my buddy Bill over at Flannery's Vintage Audio he does a lot of the out of warranty work for Sunfire and only lives about 15 minutes from me I might take my amp over to him for a quick bench test some time this week if he can make the time otherwise the OP on the ASR thread has ordered a brand new factory built amp due in any day now to run the same tests on so we should all know soon enough thanks for the offer though.

I would not go to the trouble myself. I am sure the RMS power rating will be much lower then what you think you bought judging by the weight and the size of the OPT's. I believe Bob was deceptive on advertising power but manufacturers have been doing this for decades. He did not state how he rates his power figure so that probably releases him from any liability. From all accounts though it is a well made great sounding amplifier so I would just forget all of this and just enjoy it or pass it along at some loss on the used market. Your speakers are not going to be seeing more then a few watts anyway and the amplifier provides way more then needed. I do believe Bob should not be deceptive in his advertising but just depend on an honest RMS rating and his reputation of building quality products. 

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