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Starting the New Year with a pair of Cornwalls


svberger

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Just now, RandyH said:

the MC240 is also the perfect  amp combo  ,congrats

Thanks again. Looking forward to hearing them together. And as I indicated earlier, expect to also have a pair of MC30's to compare with also, so times should be getting interesting over here the next week or so.

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On 1/5/2022 at 6:47 PM, svberger said:

Thanks again. Looking forward to hearing them together. And as I indicated earlier, expect to also have a pair of MC30's to compare with also, so times should be getting interesting over here the next week or so.

I have no idea what I was expecting but what I got is ridiculously good.

 

And I have MC30's coming on Tuesday. Oh my.

 

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On 1/5/2022 at 8:13 PM, svberger said:

I've gone completely mad and ordered a set of MC30's because I keep reading about how great they are. Figure I better just do my own comparisons with the Cornwall's, and then I'll decide what to keep. I may keep them both, and sell off some Mc solid state gear I have. Or sell nothing. Probably better long term investments these days then what I have in the stock market.

Please do some research and put the proper tubes in the proper positions on your MC240 and MC30s. Especially in the V1 spot.   Makes a big difference.  And I would suggest getting a nice thick rug for your room.

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10 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

Please do some research and put the proper tubes in the proper positions on your MC240 and MC30s. Especially in the V1 spot.   Makes a big difference.  And I would suggest getting a nice thick rug for your room.

I only have the 240  so far, and the tubes are in the proper position. If you're referring to a picture I put up from a few days ago that was not mine but used just for descriptive purposes, you can ignore it. Mine which arrived today is just above on the table on the cutting board platform, and the tubes are properly placed.

 

As for the rug, don't like them. Perfectly happy with the sound as is.

 

Thanks.

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svberger, congratulations on your super beautiful 1977 Cornwall. It is always not so easy when many people have different views on what you could do and what you might leave original. I may be a bit biased in my assessment but I am happy to share it with you. Others have their own views and diversity enriches this forum.

It will be a somewhat longer text because it gives me the opportunity to summarize my measures and because your Cornwalls are exactly from the same year and have the same drivers. The crossover is of course tuned differently but the parts are from the same kitchen. Also, I sense that you have a preference for vintage. I also drive my Lascala with C22Ce and 275MK IV. That is not vintage yet but close to it.
My very subjective opinion: My philosophy is that I would leave a classic largely original. But within that constraint I have done quite a bit on my 1977 Lascala. I have had it since 1998 and have learned from mistakes. Our 1970 Alfa Giulia doesn't get a modern Ecoboost or electric motor installed either because it's fun the way it drives originally.
Of course you can try everything, change and modernize. In extreme cases, only the cabinet and perhaps the woofer will remain.

I have exactly the same drivers in my 1977 Lascala. I'll start with the tweeter. Everything was left but I had the wonderful Alnico magnets remagnetized by an expert. This changed the overall sound image to be more radiating and at the same time silky. Personally, I would not want any other tweeter, because the impulse response and the radiation is together with the Squaker from a cast. Even if the tweeter should sometimes hiss, it is o because otherwise everything sounds super natural and colorful. During the remagnetizing I had alternatively installed K77M with ferrite magnets. For me personally, the whole magic was blown away. K77 Alnico starts the sound from perfect silence with goose bumps on strings in the second quiet movement of Beethoven's Violin Concerto but also with powerful authenticity on Derek Trucks.guitar.

Otherwise, nothing was changed on the tweeter, the diaphragms were checked and left original. The remagnetization brought 1.5 dB and a frequency response back to over 16000 Hz, previously about 12,000 Hz.

The squaker's Atlas K55 V, however, has gained a lot in terms of good sound due to two things. Although trivial to do but it is important, please check that the rubber ring between driver and horn is not crumbled. To do this, simply unscrew the driver. New rings are available at Michael Crites if necessary. Without a good seal, the pressure buildup will not work properly.
The other measure is that I installed new all original Atlas diaphragms from Michael Crites. This has made the sound pressure down to 400 Hz much more powerful again and the horn plays more pleasantly and more colorful at the same time the speech intelligibility has become clearer again. Here, too, I am convinced that the Alnico magnet, which the K55 V also has, makes everything so musical and emotional.

I can not say anything about the bass, I have resealed the doghouse of the horn with noticeable improvement. This section is different on the Cornwall.

About the crossover. My sheet metal enclosure caps were leaking and had to be replaced. My detour: in 2006 I bought an ALK Universal crossover. To my ears, it was not very musical. I now clearly heard tweeter and squaker separately. The ALK crossover is perhaps good if you mainly listen very loud because it has a higher slope. But at low to medium volumes, the magic is gone and also the spatiality...all just my subjective perception.
In 2009 I bought a crossover from Bob Crites. It was the exact copy of my original crossover.

As much as I appreciate the Crites company and people, I got to meet Bob (RIP) and his son Michael in person in Hope in 2009, I did not warm up to the Sonicaps on the frequency crossover. I actually wanted to achieve a plug and play solution with the Crites xover...The problem from my point of view is that the Sonicaps are "too modern and too accurate". They have a steeper Q. But the old horns like another Q with lower numerical value. With the Sonicaps, the sound was shrill and sometimes painful. All efforts to make the old Klipsch sound pleasant go in the direction of tube amps etc. In the case of your MC30 even with tube rectification.
The sonicaps are counterproductive. Ok, if you use modern tweeters with Traktrix horn etc then the polypropylene sonicaps probably fit very well. I learned with the help of this forum that the old oil condensers from Klipsch are polyester types. PWK picked them because they blended so well with his speakers. Although without oil (which was needed for cooling because they were originally motor run caps) Klipsch still uses polyester types to this day in their most modern Cornwall IV, etc. Polyester types. Also Roy Delgado, chief engineer of Klipsch has justified this choice here in the forum variously. The technical side would go too far now, it has to do with higher ESR at low frequencies and with the overall impedance of the network.

In any case, these are those polyester types that cost $3 each, those yellow caps from various manufacturers. Even if your xover is old, all the other parts are just coils, including the autoformer. They are perfect and no wear at all. So you only need two? (I don't know the Cornwall xover that well) new caps for a total of $10. For a little more money you can get the exact values of the capacity from the company JEM, they are the same polyester types, but the price is explained by the investment to order capacities or have them specially produced or selected that are not standard values today.

 

I just wanted to share my experiences and actions. I myself have taken 10 months with everything I have described here and many weeks between each optimization - back to the original performance. It was worth it and it's not over yet. The next step is to remagnetize the K55 V. I'm very happy with how it is now but I'm curious how the speaker sounded in 1977 when it came out of the factory.

I must say that I also have a modern Klipsch loudspeaker and therefore it may be easier for me to recreate the originality of the old Lascala. But I also have to say that the sound of the old Lascala is so stunningly good for some music that it doesn't sound as good and emotional on the modern speakers e.g. Blue Note records of the 60s are breathtaking.

 

Enjoy your also optically awesome speakers. Also enjoy all possible improvements or changes. But it sounds to me that you are happy with the Cornwalls. All the measures I have decribed are of course no „must“. Perhaps your caps stay good for the years to come.

 

Here is a link when I shared first impressions after installing the polyester/mylar caps.

 


 

 

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21 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

I hardly ever find any common ground with @jimjimbo but I agree about a rug in that room. You might be “happy” with the sound, but I am pretty sure you’ll be happier still to damp some of the hard surfaces in that room. 
 

 Either way, congrats on the speakers.

Well you know, perhaps I didn’t phrase it in exactly the correct way, but making a suggestion about Tubes in specific positions in the amplifiers, both of which I have significant experience in was totally misconstrued and basically blown off. And then, not even displaying a photo of the actual amplifier, just makes it all the more frustrating. And to receive a somewhat curt response was disappointing.  Really just trying to help.

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On 1/1/2022 at 9:19 AM, svberger said:

Happy New Year all...I've  been away from this forum for awhile, and now I'm back as I get set to welcome a new to me pair of 1977 birch Cornwalls. The previous owner had them for 30 years and stained them honey walnut. I'm getting them from a local friend who I trade gear with often. I've had two other pairs of Cornwall's over the last several years(Verticals and CII's) and for various reasons moved them on. But I kept thinking about them, and when the chance to own these came up, I decided to jump on them. For the time being at  least, they will be driven gently by a McIntosh MC2300 paired with a McIntosh C11 tube preamp. My living room is of medium size, and there is good space to move them up against the front wall and into corners(or as close as possible). Presently using a pair of Allison One speakers in there, but they will be moved to another room with a second system.

 

One initial question I have is that the caps look to be oil filled. Was Klipsch using these in '77?

 

So just wanted to say happy to be back, and as always welcome any thoughts/opinions.

 

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Wow! Absolutely beautiful and I love the old school decorator design with wood faces. Enjoy those beauties!

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6 minutes ago, Idontknow said:

 

 

Wow! Absolutely beautiful and I love the old school decorator design with wood faces. Enjoy those beauties!

Thank you!

 

Their old school design goes pretty well with this new to me piece now driving them

 

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On 1/8/2022 at 3:58 PM, Shakeydeal said:

I hardly ever find any common ground with @jimjimbo but I agree about a rug in that room. You might be “happy” with the sound, but I am pretty sure you’ll be happier still to damp some of the hard surfaces in that room. 
 

 Either way, congrats on the speakers.

Thanks. I had a rug in the room for years, and honestly without it there is no discernible audible difference that I can hear. Perhaps it's the curtains, furniture, books and records. Perhaps it's an all vintage tube rig. I don't know, but if it was the least bit bright/harsh and I felt of rug would help, I'd add it. But I love the bare floor, as my wife does, and from a sonic viewpoint there is no negative issue. A picture says one thing, what one actually hears when in the room says another. 

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On 1/11/2022 at 6:52 AM, grindstone said:

Yep :)  Careful, you'll run out of things to mess-wtih.  Congrats!

Messed with one last thing. MC30's are now coupled with the Cornwall's, and the 240 has been "relegated" to the second system.

 

And still no rug😉

 

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On 1/8/2022 at 4:23 PM, jimjimbo said:

Well you know, perhaps I didn’t phrase it in exactly the correct way, but making a suggestion about Tubes in specific positions in the amplifiers, both of which I have significant experience in was totally misconstrued and basically blown off. And then, not even displaying a photo of the actual amplifier, just makes it all the more frustrating. And to receive a somewhat curt response was disappointing.  Really just trying to help.

I apologize if my response was taken as curt. I perhaps took your comments as a bit condescending but then again you don't me and I don't know you. In any case, mine was not meant to be.

 

Obviously the tubes in the 240 are correct, so if you were indicating issues with the sample MC30 picture, all you needed to do was specify that. You were a bit vague about what you were referring to.And again, my apologies for the confusion of the picture. I thought it was clear when I put it up that I hadn't yet received the amps ,but I probably could've done a better job as specifying that.  Perhaps you were referring to the types of tubes, brands of tubes, etc., but it wasn't clear. I've been on forums like this for years, including this one, Audiokarma, Hoffman, Audio Asylum,  etc, going back to almost the beginning of some of them. I have learned a lot, and taken and asked for tons of advice. Your advice is as valuable as anybody's, and I welcome it.  And your help is greatly appreciated. So if you feel like clarifying, and expanding on your original comments I'm ready to listen.

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On 1/8/2022 at 4:14 PM, KT88 said:

svberger, congratulations on your super beautiful 1977 Cornwall. It is always not so easy when many people have different views on what you could do and what you might leave original. I may be a bit biased in my assessment but I am happy to share it with you. Others have their own views and diversity enriches this forum.

It will be a somewhat longer text because it gives me the opportunity to summarize my measures and because your Cornwalls are exactly from the same year and have the same drivers. The crossover is of course tuned differently but the parts are from the same kitchen. Also, I sense that you have a preference for vintage. I also drive my Lascala with C22Ce and 275MK IV. That is not vintage yet but close to it.
My very subjective opinion: My philosophy is that I would leave a classic largely original. But within that constraint I have done quite a bit on my 1977 Lascala. I have had it since 1998 and have learned from mistakes. Our 1970 Alfa Giulia doesn't get a modern Ecoboost or electric motor installed either because it's fun the way it drives originally.
Of course you can try everything, change and modernize. In extreme cases, only the cabinet and perhaps the woofer will remain.

I have exactly the same drivers in my 1977 Lascala. I'll start with the tweeter. Everything was left but I had the wonderful Alnico magnets remagnetized by an expert. This changed the overall sound image to be more radiating and at the same time silky. Personally, I would not want any other tweeter, because the impulse response and the radiation is together with the Squaker from a cast. Even if the tweeter should sometimes hiss, it is o because otherwise everything sounds super natural and colorful. During the remagnetizing I had alternatively installed K77M with ferrite magnets. For me personally, the whole magic was blown away. K77 Alnico starts the sound from perfect silence with goose bumps on strings in the second quiet movement of Beethoven's Violin Concerto but also with powerful authenticity on Derek Trucks.guitar.

Otherwise, nothing was changed on the tweeter, the diaphragms were checked and left original. The remagnetization brought 1.5 dB and a frequency response back to over 16000 Hz, previously about 12,000 Hz.

The squaker's Atlas K55 V, however, has gained a lot in terms of good sound due to two things. Although trivial to do but it is important, please check that the rubber ring between driver and horn is not crumbled. To do this, simply unscrew the driver. New rings are available at Michael Crites if necessary. Without a good seal, the pressure buildup will not work properly.
The other measure is that I installed new all original Atlas diaphragms from Michael Crites. This has made the sound pressure down to 400 Hz much more powerful again and the horn plays more pleasantly and more colorful at the same time the speech intelligibility has become clearer again. Here, too, I am convinced that the Alnico magnet, which the K55 V also has, makes everything so musical and emotional.

I can not say anything about the bass, I have resealed the doghouse of the horn with noticeable improvement. This section is different on the Cornwall.

About the crossover. My sheet metal enclosure caps were leaking and had to be replaced. My detour: in 2006 I bought an ALK Universal crossover. To my ears, it was not very musical. I now clearly heard tweeter and squaker separately. The ALK crossover is perhaps good if you mainly listen very loud because it has a higher slope. But at low to medium volumes, the magic is gone and also the spatiality...all just my subjective perception.
In 2009 I bought a crossover from Bob Crites. It was the exact copy of my original crossover.

As much as I appreciate the Crites company and people, I got to meet Bob (RIP) and his son Michael in person in Hope in 2009, I did not warm up to the Sonicaps on the frequency crossover. I actually wanted to achieve a plug and play solution with the Crites xover...The problem from my point of view is that the Sonicaps are "too modern and too accurate". They have a steeper Q. But the old horns like another Q with lower numerical value. With the Sonicaps, the sound was shrill and sometimes painful. All efforts to make the old Klipsch sound pleasant go in the direction of tube amps etc. In the case of your MC30 even with tube rectification.
The sonicaps are counterproductive. Ok, if you use modern tweeters with Traktrix horn etc then the polypropylene sonicaps probably fit very well. I learned with the help of this forum that the old oil condensers from Klipsch are polyester types. PWK picked them because they blended so well with his speakers. Although without oil (which was needed for cooling because they were originally motor run caps) Klipsch still uses polyester types to this day in their most modern Cornwall IV, etc. Polyester types. Also Roy Delgado, chief engineer of Klipsch has justified this choice here in the forum variously. The technical side would go too far now, it has to do with higher ESR at low frequencies and with the overall impedance of the network.

In any case, these are those polyester types that cost $3 each, those yellow caps from various manufacturers. Even if your xover is old, all the other parts are just coils, including the autoformer. They are perfect and no wear at all. So you only need two? (I don't know the Cornwall xover that well) new caps for a total of $10. For a little more money you can get the exact values of the capacity from the company JEM, they are the same polyester types, but the price is explained by the investment to order capacities or have them specially produced or selected that are not standard values today.

 

I just wanted to share my experiences and actions. I myself have taken 10 months with everything I have described here and many weeks between each optimization - back to the original performance. It was worth it and it's not over yet. The next step is to remagnetize the K55 V. I'm very happy with how it is now but I'm curious how the speaker sounded in 1977 when it came out of the factory.

I must say that I also have a modern Klipsch loudspeaker and therefore it may be easier for me to recreate the originality of the old Lascala. But I also have to say that the sound of the old Lascala is so stunningly good for some music that it doesn't sound as good and emotional on the modern speakers e.g. Blue Note records of the 60s are breathtaking.

 

Enjoy your also optically awesome speakers. Also enjoy all possible improvements or changes. But it sounds to me that you are happy with the Cornwalls. All the measures I have decribed are of course no „must“. Perhaps your caps stay good for the years to come.

 

Here is a link when I shared first impressions after installing the polyester/mylar caps.

 

Thank you for this. Excellent reading and I will consider it all. Presently I could not be happier with how these Cornwalls sound. I've had two previous pairs, older and newer, as well as Forte's and Heresy's, so I'm fairly well acquainted with the Klipsch sound. So for the time being I'm going to keep these completely stock because I like how they sound and how they interact with my gear. If things change with that, or I get bored and decide to mess around a bit, this post will be one I'll return to for guidance.
 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...
On 1/8/2022 at 4:14 PM, KT88 said:

svberger, congratulations on your super beautiful 1977 Cornwall. It is always not so easy when many people have different views on what you could do and what you might leave original. I may be a bit biased in my assessment but I am happy to share it with you. Others have their own views and diversity enriches this forum.

It will be a somewhat longer text because it gives me the opportunity to summarize my measures and because your Cornwalls are exactly from the same year and have the same drivers. The crossover is of course tuned differently but the parts are from the same kitchen. Also, I sense that you have a preference for vintage. I also drive my Lascala with C22Ce and 275MK IV. That is not vintage yet but close to it.
My very subjective opinion: My philosophy is that I would leave a classic largely original. But within that constraint I have done quite a bit on my 1977 Lascala. I have had it since 1998 and have learned from mistakes. Our 1970 Alfa Giulia doesn't get a modern Ecoboost or electric motor installed either because it's fun the way it drives originally.
Of course you can try everything, change and modernize. In extreme cases, only the cabinet and perhaps the woofer will remain.

I have exactly the same drivers in my 1977 Lascala. I'll start with the tweeter. Everything was left but I had the wonderful Alnico magnets remagnetized by an expert. This changed the overall sound image to be more radiating and at the same time silky. Personally, I would not want any other tweeter, because the impulse response and the radiation is together with the Squaker from a cast. Even if the tweeter should sometimes hiss, it is o because otherwise everything sounds super natural and colorful. During the remagnetizing I had alternatively installed K77M with ferrite magnets. For me personally, the whole magic was blown away. K77 Alnico starts the sound from perfect silence with goose bumps on strings in the second quiet movement of Beethoven's Violin Concerto but also with powerful authenticity on Derek Trucks.guitar.

Otherwise, nothing was changed on the tweeter, the diaphragms were checked and left original. The remagnetization brought 1.5 dB and a frequency response back to over 16000 Hz, previously about 12,000 Hz.

The squaker's Atlas K55 V, however, has gained a lot in terms of good sound due to two things. Although trivial to do but it is important, please check that the rubber ring between driver and horn is not crumbled. To do this, simply unscrew the driver. New rings are available at Michael Crites if necessary. Without a good seal, the pressure buildup will not work properly.
The other measure is that I installed new all original Atlas diaphragms from Michael Crites. This has made the sound pressure down to 400 Hz much more powerful again and the horn plays more pleasantly and more colorful at the same time the speech intelligibility has become clearer again. Here, too, I am convinced that the Alnico magnet, which the K55 V also has, makes everything so musical and emotional.

I can not say anything about the bass, I have resealed the doghouse of the horn with noticeable improvement. This section is different on the Cornwall.

About the crossover. My sheet metal enclosure caps were leaking and had to be replaced. My detour: in 2006 I bought an ALK Universal crossover. To my ears, it was not very musical. I now clearly heard tweeter and squaker separately. The ALK crossover is perhaps good if you mainly listen very loud because it has a higher slope. But at low to medium volumes, the magic is gone and also the spatiality...all just my subjective perception.
In 2009 I bought a crossover from Bob Crites. It was the exact copy of my original crossover.

As much as I appreciate the Crites company and people, I got to meet Bob (RIP) and his son Michael in person in Hope in 2009, I did not warm up to the Sonicaps on the frequency crossover. I actually wanted to achieve a plug and play solution with the Crites xover...The problem from my point of view is that the Sonicaps are "too modern and too accurate". They have a steeper Q. But the old horns like another Q with lower numerical value. With the Sonicaps, the sound was shrill and sometimes painful. All efforts to make the old Klipsch sound pleasant go in the direction of tube amps etc. In the case of your MC30 even with tube rectification.
The sonicaps are counterproductive. Ok, if you use modern tweeters with Traktrix horn etc then the polypropylene sonicaps probably fit very well. I learned with the help of this forum that the old oil condensers from Klipsch are polyester types. PWK picked them because they blended so well with his speakers. Although without oil (which was needed for cooling because they were originally motor run caps) Klipsch still uses polyester types to this day in their most modern Cornwall IV, etc. Polyester types. Also Roy Delgado, chief engineer of Klipsch has justified this choice here in the forum variously. The technical side would go too far now, it has to do with higher ESR at low frequencies and with the overall impedance of the network.

In any case, these are those polyester types that cost $3 each, those yellow caps from various manufacturers. Even if your xover is old, all the other parts are just coils, including the autoformer. They are perfect and no wear at all. So you only need two? (I don't know the Cornwall xover that well) new caps for a total of $10. For a little more money you can get the exact values of the capacity from the company JEM, they are the same polyester types, but the price is explained by the investment to order capacities or have them specially produced or selected that are not standard values today.

 

I just wanted to share my experiences and actions. I myself have taken 10 months with everything I have described here and many weeks between each optimization - back to the original performance. It was worth it and it's not over yet. The next step is to remagnetize the K55 V. I'm very happy with how it is now but I'm curious how the speaker sounded in 1977 when it came out of the factory.

I must say that I also have a modern Klipsch loudspeaker and therefore it may be easier for me to recreate the originality of the old Lascala. But I also have to say that the sound of the old Lascala is so stunningly good for some music that it doesn't sound as good and emotional on the modern speakers e.g. Blue Note records of the 60s are breathtaking.

 

Enjoy your also optically awesome speakers. Also enjoy all possible improvements or changes. But it sounds to me that you are happy with the Cornwalls. All the measures I have decribed are of course no „must“. Perhaps your caps stay good for the years to come.

 

Here is a link when I shared first impressions after installing the polyester/mylar caps.

 


 

 

Thought I'd update this thread, and specifically address this incredibly helpful, insightful quote.

 

I went ahead and bought a pair of "A" crossovers from Crites' today. Went with the A's because I don't need tweeter protection, and disabling the AA's  diodes made a very significant, positive difference in how my LS's sound. Grateful to Heinz for suggesting it.

 

I was hoping that Michael would be able to provide oil caps in his crossover, but alas he only does Sonicaps. Obviously, after reading Heinz's experience with them above, and given that he seems to have similar listening preferences to me, I was hesitant. But as is the case with anything in this hobby, I figured ultimately I need to hear them with my own ears, in my own space with my own gear. I don't know if Heinz removed the tweeter protection on his new AA crossovers, but I'm hoping that without the protection, the outcome for me will be a little less obnoxious. And after awhile, If I don't like them, I'll just swap the old AA's back in. I don't solder, but I have a friend who does so I could conceivably have him swap in the old caps onto the A crossover, but I'm really jumping ahead of myself here.

 

As always, all comments/thoughts/critiques welcome and appreciated.

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I also think that it is worth it to experiment a bit with our gear to learn even more what we prefer and like and what is really an enhancement. Otherwise we can go back as all this measures are reversible. The type A xover I liked for low level listening with a SET 300B amp. Bear in mind that the slope of the type A is 6dB high pass and therefore not so steep than a type AA high pass. In other words, the tweeter gets relatively more lower frequency energy, therefore easy listening is recommended.

 

TBH I do not know the point of SPL where the K77 together with a Type A would blow but it will not be audible before it happens. If more experienced type A user are reading this please share your experience. Thanks to the forum👍

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33 minutes ago, KT88 said:

I also think that it is worth it to experiment a bit with our gear to learn even more what we prefer and like and what is really an enhancement. Otherwise we can go back as all this measures are reversible. The type A xover I liked for low level listening with a SET 300B amp. Bear in mind that the slope of the type A is 6dB high pass and therefore not so steep than a type AA high pass. In other words, the tweeter gets relatively more lower frequency energy, therefore easy listening is recommended.

 

TBH I do not know the point of SPL where the K77 together with a Type A would blow but it will not be audible before it happens. If more experienced type A user are reading this please share your experience. Thanks to the forum👍

So theoretically might it be safer to stick with the AA and disable the tweeter protection?

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