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LaScala for this room


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On 1/24/2022 at 5:38 PM, dtr20 said:

So I recently did A+B comparisons between Crites built Types AA crossovers and stock Type AA crossovers with JEM caps on Belles. The Crites crossover with the sonicaps were significantly brighter compared to the JEM.

 

We then compared stock Type AA crossovers with Dayton Audio capacitors against stock Type AA crossovers with JEM caps on La Scalas. The Daytons were a little duller compared to the JEMs. I'm not trying to influence any brand over another, just saying my experiences. There's nothing wrong with going cheap with the Daytons.

 

In the end, you probably won't be comparing them to other caps like I did.

Thanks for this.
 

I would expect any new cap will have the LS’s sounding brighter. Something I really don’t need nor want .

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2 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

That was my experience when I recapped Khorn xovers with sonicaps from Crites. It took them in a direction that I didn't care for.

 

I recapped my 1982 Heresys with a kit from Crites (Sonicaps) 6 years ago. I don't think the old capacitors were bad; they were the square black plastic 2uF capacitors and they tested good on capacitance at least. I noticed a very subtle difference after the recap, all in the high frequency end of the spectrum. No difference from midrange down. The best way I can describe it is that the Heresys sounded more crystal clear with more definition in the tweeters. I perceive this as a good thing, but can understand if it drives other people nuts. I have that same definition in my Sonicap/Dayton La Scalas and Cornwalls and I love it. It's especially nice to have that detail in classical music.

 

It kind-of reminds me of the criticisms of the Audio-Technical AT440ML phono cartridge I read a number of years ago. A lot of people panned it for being too bright and "clinical," but others, like myself, found it to sound accurate and wonderful. When my AT440ML wore out, someone convinced me to replace it with a Grado Gold1 cartridge. I immediately disliked it; it sounded like someone turned the treble down 6dB or more. My records sounded lifeless and mushy with sibilance in the inner tracks that I wasn't used to before.

 

I think I'm that weird kid in the class that likes good HF detail and sparkle in my music. Hence why I prefer the K-77M to both the CT-120 and CT-125.

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Just thinking of the first time that I listened to the Bell Klipsch,it was at my brother in laws place in the mid 80’s, I had my Khorns, and the brother in law really liked them,he wound up buying a beautiful pair of Bells . I stopped over after he got them hooked up,and while there, his best buddy, a friend who had recently bought a pair of the flagship Polk SDA speakers ,pulled into the driveway.We all gathered around the new speakers while Jack( my brother in law) demonstrated his new Bells with a really great selection of high quality, live level( loud ) music, song after song capped off with an awesome jet fly over, at realistic volume levels( super recording)wow!  The look on the Polk guys face spoke volumes, he acknowledged how good the Bells sounded but he reminded us about how important imaging is and told us that his prime consideration when purchasing was about a speakers ability to image properly. Well the story doesn’t end there ,he invited us to his place to show off the SDA’s .Great I get to compare the two . He fired them up , and immediately,I thought they sounded very compressed,and dull, not impressed at all. He pointed out to us how he could locate the position of  every instrument across the soundstage ,and I think the SDA did do a good job with that , but because the sound quality /character between the speaker brands was so dissimilar  , any small  perceived difference in imaging between the speaker brands  became completely unimportant  . Before leaving , Jack and I both politely complimented him with his fine choice. On the way back home Jack and I got a good laugh about the whole thing, truth is though I felt kind of bad for the poor bast***.🤓

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2 hours ago, Desert Noises said:

I recapped my 1982 Heresys with a kit from Crites (Sonicaps) 6 years ago. I don't think the old capacitors were bad; they were the square black plastic 2uF capacitors and they tested good on capacitance at least. I noticed a very subtle difference after the recap, all in the high frequency end of the spectrum. No difference from midrange down. The best way I can describe it is that the Heresys sounded more crystal clear with more definition in the tweeters. I perceive this as a good thing, but can understand if it drives other people nuts. I have that same definition in my Sonicap/Dayton La Scalas and Cornwalls and I love it. It's especially nice to have that detail in classical music.

 

It kind-of reminds me of the criticisms of the Audio-Technical AT440ML phono cartridge I read a number of years ago. A lot of people panned it for being too bright and "clinical," but others, like myself, found it to sound accurate and wonderful. When my AT440ML wore out, someone convinced me to replace it with a Grado Gold1 cartridge. I immediately disliked it; it sounded like someone turned the treble down 6dB or more. My records sounded lifeless and mushy with sibilance in the inner tracks that I wasn't used to before.

 

I think I'm that weird kid in the class that likes good HF detail and sparkle in my music. Hence why I prefer the K-77M to both the CT-120 and CT-125.

Nothing wrong with liking good HF detail. I feel I'm getting plenty of that now with the LS's, but the simplicity of installing the Crites' crossovers has me considering picking up a pair if for nothing else to ease my curiosity. Can always use them as backups.

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One more thing. I tend to listen at reasonable levels. Even when I've used huge amps, like the McIntosh MC2300, I never turned it up to frat house party levels. All power to those that still like to headbang at those levels, but as I near the almost unbelievable age of 65(yet in the best health I've probably ever been in...I weigh now what I did in my 20's!) I have no desire to do that. Don't get me wrong, I still listen to some pretty wild stuff, including a lot of avant garde jazz/experimental, etc., and the Velvet's "I Heard Her Call My Name" has been a favorite for decades and still is. But at reasonable levels. Maybe that's why I can easily listen to the LS's. I have no need to raise the roof with them, and perhaps they are simply not the best speakers to do that with, particularly if somebody is listening with amplification that is on the shrill side to begin with, or in too small a room, or whatever else might be a problem up chain. With  a McIntosh MC240 now(and soon MC30's) I get plenty of volume, obviously, but hardly ever use anything more and yet I feel the dynamics of the music are all there and more. And yes plenty of bottom end to spare. The days of going to concerts and standing right next to the guitar player's amp, or the PA system have ended for me, and playing these speakers at high volume would be akin to that. And luckily, I don't need to.

 

 

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4 hours ago, svberger said:

One more thing. I tend to listen at reasonable levels. Even when I've used huge amps, like the McIntosh MC2300, I never turned it up to frat house party levels. All power to those that still like to headbang at those levels, but as I near the almost unbelievable age of 65(yet in the best health I've probably ever been in...I weigh now what I did in my 20's!) I have no desire to do that. Don't get me wrong, I still listen to some pretty wild stuff, including a lot of avant garde jazz/experimental, etc., and the Velvet's "I Heard Her Call My Name" has been a favorite for decades and still is. But at reasonable levels. Maybe that's why I can easily listen to the LS's. I have no need to raise the roof with them, and perhaps they are simply not the best speakers to do that with, particularly if somebody is listening with amplification that is on the shrill side to begin with, or in too small a room, or whatever else might be a problem up chain. With  a McIntosh MC240 now(and soon MC30's) I get plenty of volume, obviously, but hardly ever use anything more and yet I feel the dynamics of the music are all there and more. And yes plenty of bottom end to spare. The days of going to concerts and standing right next to the guitar player's amp, or the PA system have ended for me, and playing these speakers at high volume would be akin to that. And luckily, I don't need to.

 

 

six weeks to turn 63 for me😀

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2 hours ago, grasshopper said:

I remember being 63.... sorta

 I scooped a pair of '76 LS and do crank it up, when I'm running the vacuum or out in the yard

Yes 63 was a very good year.

 

No doubt LS's can cut through any din easily enough which makes sense considering their beginnings as a PA speaker.

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On 1/21/2022 at 2:24 PM, KT88 said:

To try it out very simply and reversibly at first, you only have to unscrew only one of the two diodes from the small sheet metal plate, loosen the threaded nut, and then pull out the diode. It doesn't matter which one. This plate conducts current from one diode to the other. When one diode is unscrewed, the whole circuit is interrupted. 
The wire can stay connected to the diode, you don't have to unsolder anything. But you should tape off the diode that is now hanging free with some insulating tape.

 

 

 

About the background:
Don't worry, these diodes are parallel to the music signal, so you don't change anything in the circuit characteristics. The function of the diodes is to short the signal to the tweeter if it would be more than two watts. But imagine how much two watts would be at the tweeter. If your whole box gets two with the basses then that's already very loud, and with two watts over all, it's estimated that only 0.2 watts will reach the tweeter. This is just to reassure you.

 

And the screw I mentioned which is in some speakers magnetic is the one in the picture above left. Test it with a small magnet. if it reacts, remove it. For now, you can try this until you find a non-magnetic replacement.

D471B35D-2E86-4C68-99B0-86B8E80999FE.jpeg

E4ABD3F3-BF0F-4C4A-A8A0-4AEC94275765.jpeg

Well got a diode in each speaker unscrewed last night and will see if I can hear any change today. 
 

I know you indicated I only need to unscrew one so I assume I can leave the other one alone unless I remove/replace the crossover? Or is there some reason/benefit I would want to unscrew the second diode?

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15 minutes ago, svberger said:

Well got a diode in each speaker unscrewed last night and will see if I can hear any change today. 
 

I know you indicated I only need to unscrew one so I assume I can leave the other one alone unless I remove/replace the crossover? Or is there some reason/benefit I would want to unscrew the second diode?

No, it is not necessary to unscrew the second diode. It is about the goal that this circuit of diodes switched from plus to minus is interrupted at one point, and that you perfectly realize by only removing one diode. I am very curious about your impression.

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2 hours ago, KT88 said:

No, it is not necessary to unscrew the second diode. It is about the goal that this circuit of diodes switched from plus to minus is interrupted at one point, and that you perfectly realize by only removing one diode. I am very curious about your impression.

Just started listening.  And there does seem to be a difference. As indicated by you, there does seem to be an element of "harshness" that has been, er, tamed might be the appropriate term? Noticed right away I could turn up the volume a little(no worries, no harm shall come to these tweeters while I'm on duty) and the gain seemed to happen a little less quickly. The first tune that came on my morning random mix was from the immortal trumpet maestro Tina Brooks. Trumpet even in the right hands can be a pretty good indicator of tweeter performance IMO. Tina's horn hit the high notes sweetly without any bitterness. Kinda like some sweet tea without the lemon(sorry, best I can do on a first few sips of coffee).

 

I want to be clear that unlike many, I did/do not find LS's harsh, sharp, etc.. On the contrary, I can listen for hours and still want to do what you see me doing in my profile pic. Get another album. But as a live Neil Young hits the mix now, with his harmonica squealing out the first notes, I really can hear a subtle but noticeable change. Neat.

 

 

 

Thanks for the tip.

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50 minutes ago, svberger said:

Just started listening.  And there does seem to be a difference. As indicated by you, there does seem to be an element of "harshness" that has been, er, tamed might be the appropriate term? Noticed right away I could turn up the volume a little(no worries, no harm shall come to these tweeters while I'm on duty) and the gain seemed to happen a little less quickly. The first tune that came on my morning random mix was from the immortal trumpet maestro Tina Brooks. Trumpet even in the right hands can be a pretty good indicator of tweeter performance IMO. Tina's horn hit the high notes sweetly without any bitterness. Kinda like some sweet tea without the lemon(sorry, best I can do on a first few sips of coffee).

 

I want to be clear that unlike many, I did/do not find LS's harsh, sharp, etc.. On the contrary, I can listen for hours and still want to do what you see me doing in my profile pic. Get another album. But as a live Neil Young hits the mix now, with his harmonica squealing out the first notes, I really can hear a subtle but noticeable change. Neat.

 

Thanks for the tip.

sbberger, yes you have described the difference exactly as I mean it, no more and no less. It is not a revolution of the sound but a small nuance more naturalness of the high tones.

Forum participants with better technical understanding may be able to explain the difference. Maybe Captainbeefheart?

My amateurish explanation goes like this: In an ideal world, the diodes will only intervene when they are supposed to in order to divert too strong currents from the tweeter. And if the currents are not too high then the diode should remain practically invisible or ineffective.

But we do not live in an ideal world. In contrast to transistors, diodes are passive components. But nevertheless they belong to the family of semiconductors. To put it in layman's terms, to me the Lascala without diodes sounds as if an additional transistor circuit (or semiconductor circuit) had been removed from the network.*

 


I am not saying anything against good transistor amplifiers, which undoubtedly exist. But in our case it is like a liberation, even if very subtle. On the other hand...it is sometimes very subtle differences that can determine the degree of positive emotions in the long run. And another thing (I don't want to overdramatize the effect of diodes) but it's sometimes such subtle differences that make certain people spend several 1000 dollars in their "hifi universe". Be it for tweeters and power line filters and cables, etc..

 

 

* Even if some people might object that the diodes are not connected in series in the signal path there is nevertheless an effect. I have experienced the sonical influence that emanates in xovers from components connected in parallel, I mean sonic influences that happened unintentionally and not the effects intended by a circuit.
E.g. on the bass section of my passive Jubilee xover a parallel connected electrolytic cap was destroyed when an amp tube blew up with a loud bang in the speaker. 
My technician wanted it well with me and he replaced the electrolytical cap with a bundle of MKT caps to reach the same uF value.. Although this was really only for the bass section of the xover and although the cap was not in the signal path, the tweeters sounded much harder. I was able to undo this by using an electrolytical cap again. 

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The more I listen the more I can discern a most definite positive difference. More then what you call a "small nuance" because normally those kinds of changes fly right over my head and I can't hear any change. Much like when I used to go in for trying different types of cables. Each change was supposed to bring with it a subtle but audible difference for the better. Never happened to my ears. Never.

 

This, however, has been quite immediate, and quite wonderful. I'm a bit flummoxed by it. I'm guessing others, particularly those with such extreme issues with LS's, would be also.

 

And mind you, all I have listened to this morning is digital streaming. I wonder how much difference I'll hear with analog. Looking forward to it.

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26 minutes ago, svberger said:

The more I listen the more I can discern a most definite positive difference. More then what you call a "small nuance" because normally those kinds of changes fly right over my head and I can't hear any change. Much like when I used to go in for trying different types of cables. Each change was supposed to bring with it a subtle but audible difference for the better. Never happened to my ears. Never.

 

This, however, has been quite immediate, and quite wonderful. I'm a bit flummoxed by it. I'm guessing others, particularly those with such extreme issues with LS's, would be also.

 

And mind you, all I have listened to this morning is digital streaming. I wonder how much difference I'll hear with analog. Looking forward to it.

Yes, for me personally it is also a valuable difference because it extends to the whole character of listening to the music as I like it. But I wanted to appear reserved politely cautious diplomatically balanced and moderately weighing and unexcited🤓because I believe that only in this way you can achieve something in others and leave people the scope to make an experience themselves.
I know from myself, when someone writes...you have to do this right now or you won't experience the paradise of sound if not, then I am at first just cautious and a bit defensive.
And then there are also many who do not hear or need this difference perhaps because it is not part of their taste of sound or it plays no role for whatever reasons, and I also respect them.

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1 hour ago, KT88 said:

Yes, for me personally it is also a valuable difference because it extends to the whole character of listening to the music as I like it. But I wanted to appear reserved politely cautious diplomatically balanced and moderately weighing and unexcited🤓because I believe that only in this way you can achieve something in others and leave people the scope to make an experience themselves.
I know from myself, when someone writes...you have to do this right now or you won't experience the paradise of sound if not, then I am at first just cautious and a bit defensive.
And then there are also many who do not hear or need this difference perhaps because it is not part of their taste of sound or it plays no role for whatever reasons, and I also respect them.

Sounds like your career occupation has provided you with the proper tools required to navigate the dark, deep and unsteady waters of forumville. I don't think I have ever taken audio advice that where the claims were less then the actual result, and by a fairly wide margin. Congratulations. It is obviously quite the little secret that hasn't seemed to reach the general population of LS listeners, especially those that have such a difficult time with the very issue that this little endeavor provides such positive impact.

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56 minutes ago, svberger said:

A good thread from 2010 that provides some great information about removing the diode(s) on the AA:

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/118388-are-the-diodes-in-aa-crossovers-necessary/

 

Evidently with the  protective diodes in place, distortion starts to kick in at 1.5 watts. That ain't much.

 

The thread is interesting. However, the two old big men, Bob RIP, are very fond of discussing their filters and impedances and their measurements and their measuring devices and so on:) They had a lot of fun and engagement. I am happy that I was able to meet Bob personally in Hope in 2009.

But I disagree with both Al and Bob on one thing. They don't want to hear what they can't measure. So they don't measure distortion up to 1.5 watt that could be caused by the diodes. Also I defend science and I don't need cables hand wound by virgins on a full moon night.
But there is a zone where apparently not everything can be measured as well as the ear perceives it. And then the old thread is useful for me in the sense that it assures that you do not destroy anything. But my conclusion is that I follow my sound impression and throw out the diodes even if the distortion measurements of the experts at low volumes say that the diodes in or out would make no difference.

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36 minutes ago, KT88 said:

The thread is interesting. However, the two old big men, Bob RIP, are very fond of discussing their filters and impedances and their measurements and their measuring devices and so on:) They had a lot of fun and engagement. I am happy that I was able to meet Bob personally in Hope in 2009.

But I disagree with both Al and Bob on one thing. They don't want to hear what they can't measure. So they don't measure distortion up to 1.5 watt that could be caused by the diodes. Also I defend science and I don't need cables hand wound by virgins on a full moon night.
But there is a zone where apparently not everything can be measured as well as the ear perceives it. And then the old thread is useful for me in the sense that it assures that you do not destroy anything. But my conclusion is that I follow my sound impression and throw out the diodes even if the distortion measurements of the experts at low volumes say that the diodes in or out would make no difference.

1.5 watts is fairly low in my estimate, and even for owner of a super efficient speaker like the LS one has to think that reaching that amount of gain would not be unusual. And therefore believing that distortion  could happen at a gain even lower then that is not asking for a lot. And as you point out, one's ears should quite easily be able to provide evidence as to that. Mine did.

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