Crimson 275 ASR review

[avguytx]

I'd like to see someone else run one of those amps through testing besides Amir.  Not everyone out there thinks he's the "cats meow" for testing stuff.

[jjptkd]

3 minutes ago, avguytx said:

I'd like to see someone else run one of those amps through testing besides Amir.  Not everyone out there thinks he's the "cats meow" for testing stuff.

One of the biggest gripes is the advertised power rating of 75x2 20-20khz at less than 1% distortion-- Frank Malice came out and admitted almost immediately the measurements they get are 75 watts one channel driven at 1khz at .6% distortion that is quite a difference.  

[Travis In Austin]

On 1/18/2022 at 4:48 PM, captainbeefheart said:

 

Sorry to hear you are sending it back, I honestly don't blame you and if I were in your shoes would do the same thing.

 

When trying to get a refund I would certainly stress the safety issues the most as they don't want authorities finding out their product isn't up to the safety standards. I would have to look at the exact statute but the way the amplifier is now it wouldn't pass and get approval if they went for the application approval.

What law, federal or state, requires an appliance, electronics, or other manufacturer to wire the ac cord a certain way? Is there a federal law that requires a three prong grounded plug, or an IEC plug?

 

The fact that they are willing to pay shipping, back and forth, and repair indicates a major, major problem for them. As mentioned by someone else, the amp has been pulled off the Music Direct site as "no longer available." They did an extremely poor job of addressing the specs issue. I didn't see anywhere that Clark (or anyone from the Bob Carver Corporation) said "the specifications are 100% accurate and we stand behind them." Instead, (from what I saw, and I quit reading at 100 pages myself) the response was "you don't listen to specs"; "I choose amps to sell that sound good." Okay, great, so the specs are incorrect/false/exaggerated and I should ignore them because the amp sounds good. Is that what you are telling me? 

 

I'm not saying anyone should return the amp, or that it doesn't sound good or anything else. But if you put specs on something, and they don't turn out to be what you put down, you have to confront the issue. I saw some of Clark's responses in the public forums and it really left me wondering what he set out to accomplish. People were upset about the power specifications, they appear misleading at best, fraudulent at worst. Instead of addressing that, it was Bob Carver says that "my amps have always been hard to test" or "they sound good when you play music." Nothing about, they got it wrong. 

 

This amp was supposedly inspired by the Mac 275 amp. (if I was McIntosh I would be sending them a cease and desist letter and demanding the removal of all mention and a name change). As you all know, a "heritage edition" of the 275 is still made and offered by McIntosh, it's $6,000. Reviewers have tested it and it exceeded the power specification throughout the entire power(?) band, not just 1K. 

 

 

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

2 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

One of the biggest gripes is the advertised power rating of 75x2 20-20khz at less than 1% distortion-- Frank Malice came out and admitted almost immediately the measurements they get are 75 watts one channel driven at 1khz at .6% distortion that is quite a difference.  

I don't think I saw that one, I wasn't aware that they came out with that right away. My recollection was that this wasn't duplicated by others, but that doesn't mean anything necessarily. 

[jjptkd]

12 minutes ago, Travis In Austin said:

I don't think I saw that one, I wasn't aware that they came out with that right away

 

01-04-2022 2:32pm

Hello everyone,

In our three labs, we all get around 75 watts @ 1% or less, 90 @ 2%, etc. 

From Jordon Gerber, ex-partner, degreed physicist and co-founder: 

 

The units are about 75 to 90 watts depending on the measurement technique. . I kept a record of every unit. The power drops at low frequencies but given the way they slam with Kef Blade IIs, the innovative towers from SpeakerLab, and Wilsons is impressive.

 

 From Edward Suver (our WA tech support, QC and manufacturing supervisor (we have production and QC supervisors in CA as well):

 

 That's a crazy review.  The amps actually put out 90w or so at 1k into 8ohms, one channel, with .6% distortion. Every one if them made on my watch was tested and confirmed to work. Maybe 2 or 3 in 100 put out maybe 80 to 85w at that distortion, don't know why though. They put out clean 90W down to 80Hz, and distort more as it goes down, due to the lack of steel in the output transformers. When Bob initially tested it, the crazy thing is that nobody minded it. Reviews confirm that. The frequency response is flat, it just gets distorted at lower frequencies, probably leading to "punchy" bass. And Bob argues that most have subwoofers and won't be using them below 80. For the output impedance, Bob wanted 1.7 ohm, and they usually measured 1.5 to 1.6. Never 2.5 or some BS.

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/peeking-inside-a-carver-crimson-275-tube-amplifier?page=2

[jjptkd]

I just want to state for the record that I absolutely love the amp and would honestly hate to see it discontinued. I sincerely hope they come up with some fixes for the issues pointed out in the review really just proper grounding appropriate power rating in specs and advertising and tighten up on QC-- I don't think that's too much to ask especially at the price they sell for.  

[Khornukopia]

13 minutes ago, Travis In Austin said:

People were upset about the power specifications, they appear misleading at best, fraudulent at worst.

As a purchaser of many things with performance specifications, I don't like what they have done.

[Khornukopia]

7 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

I just want to state for the record that I absolutely love the amp and would honestly hate to see it discontinued. I sincerely hope they come up with some fixes for the issues pointed out in the review really just proper grounding appropriate power rating in specs and advertising and tighten up on QC-- I don't think that's too much to ask especially at the price they sell for.  

You have been very calm and cool about this, here and on the other forum, and I respect that.

 

Many other Carver 275 owners have also said they love the sound. I hope the company takes good care of you folks.

[jjptkd]

2 minutes ago, Khornukopia said:

As a purchaser of many things with performance specifications, I don't like what they have done.

I agree 100% they could have easily rated it 75 watts @ 1khz less than 1% distortion and still kept the name. 

[jjptkd]

38 minutes ago, avguytx said:

I'd like to see someone else run one of those amps through testing besides Amir.  Not everyone out there thinks he's the "cats meow" for testing stuff.

One thing I did notice was that in the ASR amp rating chart the Dynaco ST-70 rated only a few notches above the Carver (pretty poorly) for whatever that's worth-- have not read the review though.

[Travis In Austin]

4 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

 

01-04-2022 2:32pm

Hello everyone,

In our three labs, we all get around 75 watts @ 1% or less, 90 @ 2%, etc. 

From Jordon Gerber, ex-partner, degreed physicist and co-founder: The units are about 75 to 90 watts depending on the measurement technique. . I kept a record of every unit. The power drops at low frequencies but given the way they slam with Kef Blade IIs, the innovative towers from SpeakerLab, and Wilsons is impressive.

 

 From Edward Suver (our WA tech support, QC and manufacturing supervisor (we have production and QC supervisors in CA as well): That's a crazy review.  The amps actually put out 90w or so at 1k into 8ohms, one channel, with .6% distortion. Every one if them made on my watch was tested and confirmed to work. Maybe 2 or 3 in 100 put out maybe 80 to 85w at that distortion, don't know why though. They put out clean 90W down to 80Hz, and distort more as it goes down, due to the lack of steel in the output transformers. When Bob initially tested it, the crazy thing is that nobody minded it. Reviews confirm that. The frequency response is flat, it just gets distorted at lower frequencies, probably leading to "punchy" bass. And Bob argues that most have subwoofers and won't be using them below 80. For the output impedance, Bob wanted 1.7 ohm, and they usually measured 1.5 to 1.6. Never 2.5 or some BS.

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/peeking-inside-a-carver-crimson-275-tube-amplifier?page=2

I don't know about anyone else, but my understanding of these multiple threads in multiple platforms was, are the specs accurate, is a manuf. liable for inaccurate specs., and/or doesn't look like this amp meets advertised specs. 

 

And the response is, well most people are going to use a subwoofer so call it good? Why not, "thank you for bringing this to our attention, it appears that because of X, Y or Z we should amend our specification" and then change the range specification to the specific 1KHz .6%? 

 

So "Bob" was aware of this inaccuracy but rationalized it based on the sound? These guys are just plain stupid. Those specifications are not "advertisements" or "mere puffery", they are representations, and that has huge legal ramifications. 

 

Nobody minded? Do you think they mind now? Nobody minded that Ford was saving a buck a car on their Pinto gas tanks until they started to get rear ended. 

 

With electronics, I would think, that specifications are a fundamental, the most important thing for an "audiophile" product. Or am I wrong on that? If you can't trust the specifications on a product are you going to do business with that company? I don't know, but the way that dampening factor, distortion, slew rate, and other things get thrown around I would think that the numbers that people but on a product would be pretty important. 

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

15 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

I just want to state for the record that I absolutely love the amp and would honestly hate to see it discontinued. I sincerely hope they come up with some fixes for the issues pointed out in the review really just proper grounding appropriate power rating in specs and advertising and tighten up on QC-- I don't think that's too much to ask especially at the price they sell for.  

Now, a good young enterprising engineer/electronics guy could make a fortune off of this. 

 

I will upgrade you amp for X. With that you get a very safe grounded IEC connection, you get new upgraded transformers. We will run power specs on your amp before the upgrade. While we are at it, you can get a capacitor upgrade we offer brand X, for a bunch more brand this, or for a whole bunch more Acme capacitors. After we upgrade it we will run tests on you amp., print them out, and guarantee them. Be sure and ask us about our tube options, etc. 

 

$750 an upgrade, plus parts. 

[Travis In Austin]

10 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

One thing I did notice was that in the ASR amp rating chart the Dynaco ST-70 rated only a few notches above the Carver (pretty poorly) for whatever that's worth-- have not read the review though.

I'm not convinced they know what they are doing either, especially after I read @Langston thread in here about how they tested a class D amp (can't remember if it was Hypex, or miniDSP). ASR said they used an AES-17 filter and they were incorrect, and not only that, the use of that filter did the opposite of what they were trying to do, show THD + N. From the manufacturer responses I have read, that were well thought out, they have taken issue with the manner in which things are tested, and refer to AES or IEC.

[captainbeefheart]

They know they majorly screwed up with the safety aspect which is why they are paying shipping both ways to have it fixed at no cost.

 

Look at almost every piece of gear you have and it is UL listed to some safety standard because the company knew enough to first make the product safe to current standards and then have a third party confirm it adheres to safety regulations. If this product went out to UL for a safety certification it would have failed the way it is which makes them negligent.

 

Jim Clark keeps embarrassing himself more and more, does he know that loudspeakers are HARDER to drive than a simple resistor? I don't think he does.

 

Specs are there for a reason. What would happen if you purchased a 4 cylinder car spec'd at 270hp but later found out after purchasing it only can make 120hp? Then the manufacturer comes out and says 'but doesn't the car drive good?". "You don't drive your car on a dyno you drive it on the road".  We all know that's BS, we need a standard of testing and everyone seems ok with the standard of testing except Jim Clark as he just doesn't get it. His only response is "it sounds better than amps that cost twice the money". Ok but that has nothing to do with anything, that only means the amp that costs twice the money is also a dud.

 

As far as Amir and his testing and why the Dynaco ends up where it does on the rating list, I will explain.

 

First off they are rating via SINAD which is signal to noise AND DISTORTION, so if the distortion of the amplifier isn't extremely low it gets put at the bottom of the list. Since most tube amps have higher distortion at lower power output levels they of course will look poor on the SINAD test. If you read the article about the ST70 that was tested it was in poor shape by my standards, that amp should have been brought up to snuff by a tech before going out for that kind of public testing.The ST70 isn't one of my favorite tube amps and it's by far not the best but it's a good amp and it still outperformed by far the Crimson 275. It exceeded rated power and bandwidth was good.

[captainbeefheart]

Going further on the SINAD test, if you don't believe distortion is a major problem with an amplifier just ignore the SINAD test they do and go by the rest of the review. I personally don't think lower order distortion especially second harmonic is a huge issue so long as it's not above 1% at full power. I believe once you get to 1% it becomes audible, unless it's 1% of all higher order harmonics and then I would never consider it, so type of distortion is important to me.

 

As for the safety I will try and explain. If you have a device that you plan to sell it must be safe even if a fault occurs. You can either double insulate which means that if anything carrying deadly currents can come loose it will never touch the outer chassis that we come in contact with, this is Class 2. The Crimson 275 is not double insulated, if something internal like a wire carrying over 600v comes loose it can come in contact with the metal chassis that comes in direct contact with user putting them in risk of electrocution. The standard for this type of device is to 'earth' the chassis that the user comes in contact with so it will always be at ground potential, if something comes loose and touches the ground reference it completes the circuit and since it's unimpeded current will be enough to blow safety fuse protecting the user. This is Class 1. If someone was ever to get hurt or die from this amplifier it would be put under a microscope for safety and since they do not follow any safety protocols they would be held negligent and lose the case. If they had properly made the amp safe to begin with and pay the short money to have it certified most likely nobody would ever get injured for it unless they themselves did something like open it up or modify it making the company not liable for the injury.

 

It's honestly such common practice for even small companies to get a third party safety certificate because that's how our world woks today, everyone is sue happy but more importantly we rely on these third party certifications to keep businesses honest and producing safe devices for consumers. It protects both parties really, one from negligence and the other from injury. For this company to not get a certificate is literally insane and stupid. They must have talked to a few lawyers and figured alright it's time to cough up the money to fix these things at no cost before we get sued. They are not doing this out of the kindness of their hearts so don't be fooled, they are doing this to avoid negligence. If the unit was 100% safe they would not be offering what they are offering, they would take the same stance they are with the power output and distortion.

[captainbeefheart]

3 hours ago, jason str said:

Looking at that paint job, color is cool but doubt even Earl Scheib would let that finish out the door.

 

Ok so it's not only me that sees the paint job as a little on the rough side. I use spray cans to paint chassis and I take care to not get orange peel or runs. It takes a little practice but you can get pretty darn good with a spray can. Even still a little 2000-5000 grit wet sand will smooth it out, once you got a nice paint coat then you clear coat and polish.

[jason str]

Fish eyes don't sand out.

 

[captainbeefheart]

1 minute ago, jason str said:

Fish eyes don't sand out.

 

 

This is very true!

 

So you are seeing a contamination issue possibly with the paint?  It's hard to tell from pictures I know but I don't doubt that could be part of the problem here. I was mainly seeing orange peel and issues from spraying far too much paint on at once.

[jason str]

Sanding would have helped, too late now.

[captainbeefheart]

On 1/18/2022 at 12:43 PM, 001 said:

 1 year ago , the amp was at a higher cost  , very happy , I waited , no affiliation of course , gonna check it out

 

https://www.usatubeaudio.com/product/amplification/integrated-amps/ayon-spirit-integrated-amplifier/

 

 

 

Had a chance to look the amp over, I have a few thoughts.

 

First I agree with their stance on Ultra linear, Pure pentode mode done right is better and triode mode is the best of all three except for the reduction in power, no free lunch right.

 

Now a couple of issues on the specs is they do not list a weight or at least I couldn't find how much the amplifier weighs. The other issue is they do not tell us distortion vs frequency at full power. The former worries me for the same reasons the Crimson 275 can't make the power output at full bandwidth due to undersized transformers. The latter worries me because with Pentode mode you need feedback to get acceptable distortion figures. They may not use output to input or 'global feedback' and instead used local feedback around the output stage ala 'Schade' feedback or cathode feedback etc.. If they gave distortion information I would have a better idea if local feedback is being applied. Regardless of distortion I would still be concerned with a high output impedance with no global feedback. Now 40 watts is plenty and not a huge difference to the pentode output of 65 watts so I would just run this amp in triode mode full time for best performance. Even triode output stages can take advantage of feedback so I just do not understand why these companies are so worried about using feedback, most likely to fit a niche of the market for people scared of feedback from either reading incorrect things about it online or from experiencing a product with improperly applied feedback giving a poor impression and coming to a bad conclusion all feedback is bad. Anyone can apply feedback but not everyone has a good understanding of control theory and compensation which leads to many products in the market with bad examples in the application of feedback.

 

I would really need to see a schematic and some further testing to make reasonable analysis of the amplifier.