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Would my 1987 La Scala Industrials sound better if I installed risers like the new AL5’s have?


gilligan

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9 hours ago, Dave MacKay said:

 

 

Although I didn't brave the weather, just for giggles I put my La Scalas on some dollies that I had laying about. They raised my speakers 5" off the floor (not 3" like the AL5 risers).

 

I didn't do a before/after test with REW and my UMIK-1 so that my observations are based solely on my hearing/perception. And ... I'll be the first to admit that my hearing likely isn't as discriminating as some others on the forum, so that my observations may not be entirely correct.

 

I may have been seduced by the novelty of the change, but I thought the speakers sounded better: I thought that the music sparkled a bit more. But, if there was an improvement in bass, it was pretty modest.

 

@Bubo may have explained why I thought the speakers sounded better.

 

I'll definitely be building risers for my La Scalas (and replacing the gaskets on the bass bins). Until then I'm going to leave them on the dollies.

 

 

As long as the risers are closed, they should do no harm to the sound.  

 

But if you think the HF section on your Scalas is too low, maybe you should get a nice reclining armchair or love seat, and get yourself down to squawker level.  

 

I don't like reclining sofas, because the middle seat doesn't recline, due to the lack of a place to put the control lever.  However, there are some love seats that are just as wide as a sofa, and have two extra-wide cushions, instead of three regular-width ones.  Then you have full-width recline action (reclination?), which makes for a pleasantly large near-horizontal viewing area.  Some of the powered sofa-width love seats even have a separately-operated headrest section, which you can raise up so you don't fall asleep.

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7 hours ago, Islander said:

 

But if you think the HF section on your Scalas is too low,

maybe you should get a nice reclining armchair or love seat,

and get yourself down to squawker level.  

 

I use to do this with blondes, brunets and redheads.

Now they call me Sir, and my speakers are up on 4" casters

Ahhhhhhh .... the old days of music listening .........

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If you have the means to make a riser.....you might have some wood clamps.

 

If so, then as an experiment, take the wood clamp and put it on the mouth of the woofer horn and snug it down.  What you are attempting to do is FREEZE any vibrations of the huge side panels.  If you can do this, you might THINK that you've just got done adding an octave of bass to the speaker......you haven't.  That sound is already there but it gets masked by the side walls resonating.

 

If you like the (likely improved) sound with the clamp, you can figure out some of the other ways to tighten up the sides.  If you don't like or notice any improvement, take the clamps off and return them to their proper storage location.  

 

If you don't have large enough clamps, run to local home improvement store, buy a pair of clamps that will be long/wide enough to do each speaker....  give it a whirl.  Keep receipt and return when experiment is over.

 

 

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Coytee, many people think the improved bass response of the La Scala II is because the 1" thick MDF sidewalls don't flex, but there's more to it than that.  The bass horn on the LS2 is around an inch longer, as can be seen by the front edge of the Vee of the doghouse being around an inch back from the mouth of the horn.  The cabinet is 25" deep, rather than the 24" of the OG La Scala.  That alone would improve the bass response a bit.

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Just going on my conversation(s) with Mr. Hunter.  He's the one who said that (trying to paraphrase him after 10'ish years)  

 

"The same bass information is in both speakers but it just gets masked by the sides of the cabinet resonating....  once you get rid of that resonating, they sound (essentially) the same"

 

I probably only butchered 93.5903% of his comment but that's the gist of it.

 

Adding fiberglass and metal trim would probably help break up some (most?) of those resonant frequencies.  Then, as I believe you know, if someone went with an active crossover, there's a PEQ where Roy has removed the peak at a certain frequency (something like 150 hz?)

 

 

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17 hours ago, Islander said:

Coytee, many people think the improved bass response of the La Scala II is because the 1" thick MDF sidewalls don't flex, but there's more to it than that.  The bass horn on the LS2 is around an inch longer, as can be seen by the front edge of the Vee of the doghouse being around an inch back from the mouth of the horn.  The cabinet is 25" deep, rather than the 24" of the OG La Scala.  That alone would improve the bass response a bit.

Interesting , here are the 3  datasheets -LS is 24,5 inches deep , LS II is 25.25 inches deep - the AL-5 Is even deeper -  25 5/16  inches -

https://d2um2qdswy1tb0.cloudfront.net/files/Heresy-II-La-Scala-Belle-Klipsch-brochure-and-specs.pdf

 

http://assets.klipsch.com/product-specsheets/La-Scala-II-Spec-Sheet-v03.pdf

https://d2um2qdswy1tb0.cloudfront.net/product-specsheets/La-Scala-2018-Spec-Sheet-v01.pdf

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I just assumed the difference in dimensions was mostly about the thicker panels but I can say that stiffening the sides of my 1976 versions made a big difference.  Still haven't veneered the cabinets but might stick with the original black.  Been on the fence for quite a few years now.

 

I tried quite a few variations of heights to raise them up but no amount sounded as good as flat on the floor (room is wall to wall carpet). 

I use DSP to trim off 7dB at 148Hz Q 8.0 which cleans the sound up a lot.

Also played with knocking off 4 dB at 180Hz Q 12.0

These numbers came from some conversation here about the LaScala bins but I don't remember the original source.  My ears had me at 150Hz knocked down 4dB so I was pretty close. 

 

 

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On 2/2/2022 at 3:04 PM, muel said:

I just assumed the difference in dimensions was mostly about the thicker panels but I can say that stiffening the sides of my 1976 versions made a big difference.  Still haven't veneered the cabinets but might stick with the original black.  Been on the fence for quite a few years now.

 

I tried quite a few variations of heights to raise them up but no amount sounded as good as flat on the floor (room is wall to wall carpet). 

I use DSP to trim off 7dB at 148Hz Q 8.0 which cleans the sound up a lot.

Also played with knocking off 4 dB at 180Hz Q 12.0

These numbers came from some conversation here about the LaScala bins but I don't remember the original source.  My ears had me at 150Hz knocked down 4dB so I was pretty close. 

 

 

Would you happen to have the link to that particular conversation about the bins? 

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  • 4 months later...
On 1/24/2022 at 10:38 PM, Dave MacKay said:

What a coincidence!  I've been wondering if risers would be of benefit to my 1986 La Scalas. I wasn't thinking of bass, just about getting the speakers closer to ear level when I'm seated.

 

Just today I went through my notes about the AL5 risers because I was thinking of making some for my 1986 La Scalas. If my notes are correct, the AL5 risers are 3" high and are made of 1" MDF (just like the AL5). 

 

When the snow stops I was thinking I'd rummage through my wood pile and make a pair of risers just to see if they make any difference.

 

It took me a while, but I finally built risers for my La Scalas. I made them tall enough so that the tweeter is at the same height as my ears at my listening position. For me, that meant building risers slightly more than 5" tall.

La-Scala.thumb.jpg.65c5b515c5169c048ff5120a7a295b56.jpg

 

I thought the speakers sounded a little better in that the music sparkled a bit more. But, that could simply be because I was hoping to hear an improvement. 🙂

 

I have not yet run any sweeps with REW; I'll post the graphs when I've done that.

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On 12/20/2022 at 1:35 AM, Dave MacKay said:

 

It took me a while, but I finally built risers for my La Scalas. I made them tall enough so that the tweeter is at the same height as my ears at my listening position. For me, that meant building risers slightly more than 5" tall.

La-Scala.thumb.jpg.65c5b515c5169c048ff5120a7a295b56.jpg

 

I thought the speakers sounded a little better in that the music sparkled a bit more. But, that could simply be because I was hoping to hear an improvement. 🙂

 

I have not yet run any sweeps with REW; I'll post the graphs when I've done that.

Thanks for posting, it looks great. Aside of measurements etc. what is your first impression re the bass performance? Is it perhaps more articulated in the upper bass region, but is it also with the same „feel“ of body even if it is lifted from the floor? or even more so? My first thought was it could sound a tad less „grounded“?

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Here are the REW measurements that show the affect that adding risers to my La Scalas had when measured at my listening position. I have applied 1/3 smoothing to the graphs.

 

The risers (blue line) raise the La Scalas just over 5" so that the tweeters are at the same height as my ears (roughly 40") at my listening position.

654082633_Risersornorisers.thumb.jpg.cf87b0e4d7383f67a87a7207a5bb1a51.jpg

From the graph, it looks like the frequency response is flatter without the risers (perhaps the risers exposed more problems with my room's acoustics). The measurements show that the riser brought a bit more volume.

 

Although I tried to keep all of the measurement parameters the same, they were done several weeks apart. It's possible that, maybe, the volume settings were different. If that were the case, if one were to turn up the volume on measurement without the risers by 4 dB, the graph would look like this:

aligned.thumb.jpg.4a83f6b71e8efc40c34760b5883893e2.jpg

The graphs show that the risers didn't bring much benefit; the SPL graph is flatter without risers. Even if the risers did result in higher SPL at the listening position, the effect was generally modest (~4 dB). 

 

I thought that the speakers sounded better with the risers but the measurements belie that. I'll use the risers for a while longer, but they may not have a permanent place in my listening room.

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On 1/26/2022 at 8:54 AM, Coytee said:

Just going on my conversation(s) with Mr. Hunter.  He's the one who said that (trying to paraphrase him after 10'ish years)  

 

"The same bass information is in both speakers but it just gets masked by the sides of the cabinet resonating....  once you get rid of that resonating, they sound (essentially) the same"

 

I probably only butchered 93.5903% of his comment but that's the gist of it.

 

Adding fiberglass and metal trim would probably help break up some (most?) of those resonant frequencies.  Then, as I believe you know, if someone went with an active crossover, there's a PEQ where Roy has removed the peak at a certain frequency (something like 150 hz?)

 

 

Are You making a case for free air  Speakers. ?)

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11 hours ago, the real Duke Spinner said:

Are You making a case for free air  Speakers. ?)

 

If by that you mean open baffle bass, then absolutely. I have had two such systems in my room, one by GR Research and the other Spatial Audio. OB bass has a quality not unlike horn loaded bass in that they are both extremely good. The GR Research OB subs produced some of the best low end I've ever heard in my room, and the Spatial Audio X3s were a close second.

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On 2/4/2022 at 2:31 PM, gilligan said:

Would you happen to have the link to that particular conversation about the bins? 

 

1. In case you're still floating around here

2. Since this thread popped back up

 

Here is a PDF for a LaScala bass bin with the K402 on top.  Ignore the K402 settings and look at the LF settings.  You'll see the PEQ in there at 148 Hz, -7db's, Q=8

 

This was put in for an actively powered LaScala and used to tame the sidewalls from resonating (as much as could be done electronically I suppose)

DX-38 settings for LaScala (1 or 2) LF with K402 & K69.pdf

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